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 Replies: 12 / Views: 351 |
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New Member
United States
39 Posts |
Of course "desirability" is in the eye of the beholder, very subjective. But all things equal, is one of these two versions (assuming you believe there are two versions pictured) more valuable in the collecting world and/or more desirable and/or more rare? I want to get this coin. I've watched the youtube videos and read a good number of online articles about the Athena Owl. I know there are various versions of this coin. But in all the resources I've read, they've discussed obvious differences, e.g. owl size, owl design, etc. But I haven't found a resource which discusses the history and value of these two versions, maybe because they are so similar. So... are these two versions equal in desirability? Equal in value (all other things equal)?/collectibility? Or is one version slightly more sought after than the other? Were they simply minted in different places using different dies? Thanks again! You guys/gals are probably getting sick and tired of my foolish questions. Sorry. Just tryin' to learn.   |
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Moderator
 United States
32709 Posts |
Quote:
Just tryin' to learn. That is 100% our goal here, so no worries. As a general rule, coins that are more centered are sought after more, so that could place the top coin at a premium to the bottom one.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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New Member
 United States
39 Posts |
Thanks! Appreciate it! Putting aside the strike and condition, aren't those two different coins? There seem to be subtle differences, especially in the owl.
Edited by floyd5175
02/23/2025 8:56 pm
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Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Assuming they're the exact same cost and die variety:
First exhibits a better strike and likely a higher technical grade. (Like it or not, those numerical grades matter to a lot of people, and impact valuation on the market.) I'd expect it to carry a premium to the second.
First also has more of the design on-flan.
Both are pretty brightly colored, which is a negative for me. I want (and value) toning.
I like the owl on the reverse of the second more -- toning brings it out, and there's more wing struck up.
Note: I don't collect these. A specialist would likely see a lot more than I would, and could speak to the dies.
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New Member
United States
39 Posts |
Okay... I did an awful job communicating in my opening post. I'm not concerned about these two coins specifically, my question is about the general style of the two coins. Is one style more desirable or valuable than the other. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but it seems to me the eyes are bigger on the first version, but the head is larger on the second. The size and position of Athena's eyes seems different between the two styles, as well.
So I'm wondering if the top style is more desirable/valuable/rarer than the bottom style. Or is it a horse a piece?
I've been looking at a lot of these coins on various auctions, and it seems to me the top style hammers at a higher price on average than the bottom style.
Edited by floyd5175
02/23/2025 11:35 pm
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Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
I think you're just looking at differences in the dies. "Style" usually has a different connotation in ancients, and refers to fineness of design & artistic ability. The study of die varieties and different dies is a pretty specialized area of any coin type. I'm sure someone here has some references for books covering this series. I assume these have been studied extensively enough to have obverse & reverse designations for die pairings.
The top die's obverse looks more refined & better executed (viz. eye, lips, & nose). I'm probably the worst person to judge heads on an artistic basis, though. My suggestion is to get a more holistic understanding of style in the ancients field -- some busts are considered masterpieces & sell for high sums, despite looking pretty mundane to me -- to form a better idea of what's "good" versus "not good" style.
You seem interested enough in this type that I'd suggest looking for a specialized reference book for Athenian owls. It'd probably answer a lot of questions... and provide some insights to what you're already touching on, whether you realize it or not.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21593 Posts |
If I was bidding at auction, my bids for the first example would be higher.
Beware Athenian Owls in good silver are often faked. Careful analysis of style, and relying on extensive professional experience is critical.
Sometimes, XRF analysis of surface metal, looking significant impurities (not silver), can be helpful. I hope NGC does this sort of analysis.
If you don't know, rely on auctioneer's description (on which their reputation will depend), or get the coin NGC slabbed.
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Moderator
Australia
16181 Posts |
These two coins would be considered the same class, for all but the specialist Owl collector. They are both Classical or "Old Style" tetradrachms. CLassical tetradrachms can be subdivided into broad categories: "Early", "Mass", and "Late". "Mass" are the most common, as these were struck at the height of the Athenian empire, and can be further subdivided into "early" and "late". But the precise chronology of Athenian owls is still a largely conjectural area of numismatics, despite their huge popularity and abundance. This ancients.info page has some discussion on the classification of owls. By far the more important characteristic, in terms of valuation, is, as noted above, the centring of the obverse die. The amount of the crest on Athena's helmet is a strong indicator, with "full crest" coins commanding a premium over partial crest or coins missing the crest altogether. In your two examples, the top coin has "more crest visible", so would probably command a higher price for that reason. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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New Member
United States
39 Posts |
Thank you for that link! Very informative and enlightening! This caught my attention and I think relates to my confusion!
Quote from the article:
"I earlier did a similar stylistic analysis. What I've noticed from looking in collection and auction catalogs and in person at untold numbers of these coins, as well as those that preceded and followed them, is that the Mass Owls that were likely issued earlier, compared with those issued later, tend to have the following characteristics:
Athena has a wider, smiling mouth that can appear as a smirk rather than a short mouth that's neutral in affect or that curves slightly downward, forming a frown.
Athena has a more protruding rather than a flatter face.
The eye of Athena is smaller and more symmetrical, with the curve forming the upper half mirroring the curve forming the lower half, rather than the two sides being asymmetrical.
The floral scroll on Athena's helmet is smaller rather than larger.
The owl has shorter rather than longer claws.
The ethnic consists of smaller rather than larger letters.
The incuse square is more clearly visible on the coin's flan rather than being off it."
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Here's two more links about the different stages of the Athens owls. There are more detailed reference books about them too. The most production and most commonly available is the "classic" design from about 454-404 BC. Many dies were used so there are variations of the classic design as Sap said. The last owl design was a flat round coin like we use today. I have three of the flat ones. In total Athens likely struck hundreds of thousands if not millions of silver tetradrachms. I think thousands remain today though it would be difficult to know how many there are with so many collectors owning them and those in museums. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/articl...etradrachms/https://coinweek.com/the-tetradrach...-and-athena/Edited by livingwater
02/24/2025 07:42 am
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Moderator
United States
32709 Posts |
@floyd, when you do finally purchase your tet, I hope that you will post it here. Maybe then we can all post owls from our own collections to create our a parliament in one thread!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Valued Member
Portugal
444 Posts |
The estimates I have read and believe are that Athens struck many tens of millions of classical tetradrachms. It is a very common coin. Tens of thousands are being sold recently from a mysterious hoard. Some say found in Turkey. Some say Syria. Some speculate it is the product of looting from museums in that collapses state.
It is shameful that France and Greece are gifting to Turkey thousands of coins attributed to this hoard without first doing and publishing a full photographic inventory of the coins. If they came from a genuine hoard such photographs would be very useful for study of the type. The sellers will not be doing that work.. Perhaps the inventory exists but I found nothing published.
I think the open mouthed Athena in the second coin very odd. The helmet decoration is classical mass produced type. I would expect the mouth to be as the first.
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Valued Member
Portugal
444 Posts |
Decided to research a bit about recent owls being sold. That second one may be from the recent heard? A late classical mass produced type, from recycled silver and just before the pi types?
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Replies: 12 / Views: 351 |
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Posted 02/23/2025 7:42 pm
