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samoth's Last 20 Posts
| My First Ancient Coin: What Should I Get?
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
 Posted Yesterday 8:49 pm
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Quote:
I only have 2 ancients and I got mine locally. I don't know enough about these to purchase not graded so I can't comment, I don't know if its even real.
I only have three Greeks. After the first (Larissa drachm), I bought a well-made fake of it to try to better understand the differences. I still don't think I'd be able to tell real versus fake of a series I don't know very well (reference books, hundreds of auction references) if they both passed the ring test.
My other two are Messana hares. With extensive auction records & an expensive primary reference, it's easier to get a "feel" for the stylistic differences and what real ones looks like.
The sheer volume of fakes amongst ancients is a big reason I don't pursue them.
I don't know of any good advice for people with a potential interest in the field other than to assemble a black cabinet & extensive library. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Two Athena Owls: Are They The Same Desirability?
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/23/2025 10:12 pm
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I think you're just looking at differences in the dies. "Style" usually has a different connotation in ancients, and refers to fineness of design & artistic ability. The study of die varieties and different dies is a pretty specialized area of any coin type. I'm sure someone here has some references for books covering this series. I assume these have been studied extensively enough to have obverse & reverse designations for die pairings.
The top die's obverse looks more refined & better executed (viz. eye, lips, & nose). I'm probably the worst person to judge heads on an artistic basis, though. My suggestion is to get a more holistic understanding of style in the ancients field -- some busts are considered masterpieces & sell for high sums, despite looking pretty mundane to me -- to form a better idea of what's "good" versus "not good" style.
You seem interested enough in this type that I'd suggest looking for a specialized reference book for Athenian owls. It'd probably answer a lot of questions... and provide some insights to what you're already touching on, whether you realize it or not. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Two Athena Owls: Are They The Same Desirability?
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/23/2025 9:08 pm
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Assuming they're the exact same cost and die variety:
First exhibits a better strike and likely a higher technical grade. (Like it or not, those numerical grades matter to a lot of people, and impact valuation on the market.) I'd expect it to carry a premium to the second.
First also has more of the design on-flan.
Both are pretty brightly colored, which is a negative for me. I want (and value) toning.
I like the owl on the reverse of the second more -- toning brings it out, and there's more wing struck up.
Note: I don't collect these. A specialist would likely see a lot more than I would, and could speak to the dies. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Breaking Apart A NGC Case: Stupid Idea?
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/23/2025 7:19 pm
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You have it completely wrong. Those slabs do not protect coins. Look at the warranties that the companies selling the slabs include. No long warranty for copper or other reactive metals.
If you have a coin you must protect, take it out of the plastic box and protect it properly. The best and time tested method have been varnishes where corrosion is a problem. Only make sure you pick one that can be removed easily.
I don't disagree. Copper & billon coins especially require regular maintenance.
Casual collectors and people new to coins, however, are probably better off with with slabs, considering the other ways in which they are likely to store their coins.
Most people are unlikely to spend the time necessary to learn & perform successful conservation & preservation activities. They're just looking to acquire some attractive old coins, not pursue studies in chemistry & metallurgy.
I wish more people had your attitude & knowledge here. Unfortunately, people like us don't represent the average collector  |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Question About An Athenian Owl
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/21/2025 8:12 pm
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To my newbie, untrained, uneducated eye it looks great! What am I missing?
It looks dipped. Some people like that bright, clean color, but I'm personally a fan of darker, older toning -- which is unfortunately somewhat difficult to find.
Learning what colors are good, bad, natural, artificial, &c. is something that takes time and varies from one series to another, one metal to another. If you're wondering why people are pointing that out, don't worry -- we've all been there :) |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Breaking Apart A NGC Case: Stupid Idea?
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/21/2025 7:56 pm
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I'm all for cracking out coins that aren't ultra-rare museum-quality pieces that require the utmost care and protection from the environment.
Something like a Messana hare tetradrachm with Pan should be slabbed, or a high copper-content coin that will react with the environment. I'd definitely break out a common Athenian own, though -- it's a piece of history to hold, it's not reactive, and it already survived the last 2500 years just fine.
Make sure you look up how to properly crack slabs. You can find videos on YouTube.
I highly suggest maintaining any documentation, like the NGC label and purchase documentation, with the coin.
People can be pretty opinionated with respect to slabbing. I started out in EAC (early American coppers) and moved into medievals, so I'm in the what-the-heck-are-you-doing-encasing-that-in-plastic school. Collectors of modern high-grade or proof coins tend to feel the opposite, and I think they're justified. Just remember the cliche: buy the coin, not the slab. With ancients & medievals, qualitative or numerical grades rarely have meaning. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Walking Back From 1600 With Dated Coins
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/18/2025 7:05 pm
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I looked a little closer at the ... medieval coins at the show this weekend. I wanted to dip a pinky toe in and get familiar with what was available. You guys have rubbed off on me. Just a a little.
Yesss... join usss... on the dark siiiide 
Quote:
1375 AD Aachen Groschen (attributed as Levinson I-4a and minted at Jungheit)
Oh, my... that one leaves me speechless. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| My First Ancient Coin: What Should I Get?
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 02/09/2025 7:27 pm
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Fakes -- good fakes -- abound in ancient coins. If you are inexperienced, stick with a coin encapsulated in an NGC or PCGS holder. You can break it out ("crack") if you don't like it being in plastic.
You're better off with some books & education before jumping into the most heavily counterfeited area of coins. (I also advocate buying fakes to better understand the difference.)
Roman bronzes can be had cheap, and are a good intro to ancients. Going to coin shows can give you some good exposure & handling experience, too. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Walking Back From 1600 With Dated Coins
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 12/22/2024 5:05 pm
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@Spence: I love those little kortlings. It would be fun to try to put together a full set of those.
Any ideas why there are multiple varieties/IMs that year? (Different engravers? Mintmasters?) I bet there are more varieties in the series that Levinson & Schrock haven't identified yet. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| Walking Back From 1600 With Dated Coins
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 11/03/2024 09:40 am
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1477 double briquet of the Duchy of Brabant (there are lots of things in the legends of this coin that look like an 8 but none of them are ):
And a lot of rust on that reverse die. I wonder how long it was sitting around -- and what year the coin was actually struck? (How long does it take a die to rust?) |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| ID Help, Bronze Medieval Coin With Wild Boar? Motif
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 10/13/2024 5:28 pm
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The first link is attributed as Mitchiner 488 var., so there is some hope to find it there.
That's what I ran into when searching google, but the reverse is quite different.
Jetons often took their designs from circulating coins, so the only thing I'm convinced of at this point... is that I need to get more books.  |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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| ID Help, Bronze Medieval Coin With Wild Boar? Motif
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samoth
Valued Member
United States
91 Posts |
Posted 10/13/2024 5:24 pm
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Thanks for all the help so far. It certainly seems more jetton like. I even have Jetons, Medalets and Tokens / Volume 1. The Medieval Period and Nuremberg by Michael Mitchiner somewhere but I don't think it covers French ones unfortunately. I'll have to dig it out and have a look
I've been trying to acquire Mitchiner I for a few years :)
Mitchiner II covers France & Low Countries. There are other, cheaper jeton references for France out there, too. Dugniolle is online, but that's limited to the Low Counties as well.
I was leaning towards coin over jeton due to the coin-like legends on both sides. Googling "french jeton fish" turns up similar obverse designs, but with a distinct jeton-like reverse. |
| | Forum: Ancient, Greek, Roman, and Medieval Coins |
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