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ID Help, Bronze Medieval Coin With Wild Boar? Motif

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Bacchus2's Avatar
United Kingdom
2532 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2024  4:35 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi,
Any pointers appreciated. Coin is 27mm and there appears to be a wild boar image above the fleur-de-lis

thanks in advance



Valued Member
United States
91 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2024  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add samoth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's French, around mid-sixteenth century.

I'm sure someone here has a copy of Duplessy...
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Russian Federation
4935 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2024  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "wild boar" is actually (almost certainly) a particularly fierce dolphin and the coin is probably billon, most likely a liard.

I don't have a copy of Duplessy, but I can try to check on Numista.

[EDIT: nothing relevant on Numista that I can find.]
Edited by january1may
10/12/2024 6:04 pm
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Spence's Avatar
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32709 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2024  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't they call dolphins the boars of the sea?

I can check both Roberts and Duplessy in the am if someone hasn't gotten a ID by then.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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Russian Federation
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 Posted 10/13/2024  01:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An awkward attempt to read the legends...

Dolphin side: [L?]E [B?]xxN ENxxIEVL'
Cross side: +SOICS EMTE... ...[D?]OV

I can't make any sense of it, particularly on the cross side (where SOICS is very clear, though the C could maybe be E). Numista has absolutely nothing relevant (that I could find, anyway).
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 10/13/2024  08:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Strikes me as more likely a jeton than a coin based on the legends.

Added: Not matches, but general type (dolphin/cross): https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8874149
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7244088
Edited by tdziemia
10/13/2024 08:29 am
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Bacchus2's Avatar
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2532 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2024  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all the help so far. It certainly seems more jetton like. I even have Jetons, Medalets and Tokens / Volume 1. The Medieval Period and Nuremberg by Michael Mitchiner somewhere but I don't think it covers French ones unfortunately. I'll have to dig it out and have a look
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 10/13/2024  5:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first link is attributed as Mitchiner 488 var., so there is some hope to find it there.

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 Posted 10/13/2024  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add samoth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Thanks for all the help so far. It certainly seems more jetton like. I even have Jetons, Medalets and Tokens / Volume 1. The Medieval Period and Nuremberg by Michael Mitchiner somewhere but I don't think it covers French ones unfortunately. I'll have to dig it out and have a look


I've been trying to acquire Mitchiner I for a few years :)

Mitchiner II covers France & Low Countries. There are other, cheaper jeton references for France out there, too. Dugniolle is online, but that's limited to the Low Counties as well.

I was leaning towards coin over jeton due to the coin-like legends on both sides. Googling "french jeton fish" turns up similar obverse designs, but with a distinct jeton-like reverse.
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 Posted 10/13/2024  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add samoth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The first link is attributed as Mitchiner 488 var., so there is some hope to find it there.


That's what I ran into when searching google, but the reverse is quite different.

Jetons often took their designs from circulating coins, so the only thing I'm convinced of at this point... is that I need to get more books.
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 10/13/2024  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've been puzzling over this one a bunch, but haven't got much to show for my efforts.

@j1m, I believe that the one word which is fairly clear in the second image is SOIES, which seems to be the plural of French word for silk.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 10/13/2024  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Jetons often took their designs from circulating coins, so the only thing I'm convinced of at this point... is that I need to get more books.


Maybe erafjel is checking in and can help.
I was also thinking that 27 mm is kind of large for what I am used to seeing for low denomination coins in very low grade billion. But I agree the reverse design is very "coin-ike" compared to other jetons as you've pointed out (that more ornate cross in the quadrilobe is way more common).

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 Posted 10/14/2024  04:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I missed the 27 mm part! Yeah, that would be far oversized for actual 14th-16th century billon (especially in denominations as low as a liard), but about normal size for a jeton.

If I noticed that I'd probably have been looking for jetons in the first place.
Edited by january1may
10/14/2024 04:06 am
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
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 Posted 10/14/2024  05:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh, I'm here, have been following this, for sure.

My first thought was some sort of gros from the French province of Dauphiné, since they usually have some arrangement with dolphins and fleurs-de-lis. But a dolphin above a fleur-de-lis does not match any feudal or royal French coin, and the text does not make much sense. The closest are denier tournois issued for Dauphiné, but they have a dolphin and a fleur side by side, never on top of each other (plus those coins are much smaller).

And the text, well, it doesn't really look like anything from a French coin. So I too am inclined to think that this is a jeton of some kind.

I have no idea what the text may be, except for one thought: "soies" (if that is what it says) is plural of soie, the French word for silk, but it is also an ancient form of sois, 2nd person imperative of être ("is", "be", or "let" in English). It could mean "let yourself" or "you should be", followed by something ("emtexx"?). That could make sense on a jeton. (Compare with the motto of the British Order of the Garter, included in the UK royal coat of arms: Honi soit qui mal y pense, "Shamed be whoever thinks ill of it".)
Edited by erafjel
10/14/2024 06:28 am
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Bacchus2's Avatar
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 Posted 10/14/2024  11:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've had a look at Mitchiner Vol. 1 and as highlighted - the Dolphin (wild boar :) ) motif is there - but no fleur-de-lis, and the reverse is very much different.

Hopefully it's OK to post this page as learning/ fair use.


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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 10/14/2024  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also, I would not be surprised if the date is back a bit further. That uncial e with the somewhat pointed backside, the uncial m a few characters later, and the L with the exaggerated upstroke on the right are more familiar to me on late 14th and 15th c. coins (at least in Low Countries), though maybe jeton engravers liked those older forms.
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