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Chinese Kwang Tung 2 Mace 7 Candereens - Analysis Of Coins By A Complete Novice

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 624Next Topic  
New Member

United Kingdom
21 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2025  1:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add btsimonh to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A week ago, when looking in a box of coins that we got some 30 years ago from my wife's father on his house move, we've found a Chinese Kwang tung 2 Mace 7 Candereens.
We are NOT collectors, and so need decent advice as to if/how we could sell this coin.
I have emailed Heritage auctions to ask if they would like to sell it.




We are in the UK.

I've done a lot of research in the last week, as you can imagine with the highest sale for this coin being being $500,000!

The coin we have looks very genuine, and I can't imagine how a fake could have been procured by the person who had the box of coins.
We have evidence of two possible sources:
1/ photographic evidence of family visiting Nanking (hear shaghai) in 1938.
2/ Ancestry evidence of an engineer in the family who lived within 0.4 miles of the Heaton mint.

Since I can't post high res images here, I've prepare a website highlighting my research on this coin.

What I need to know:
1/ what is the chance that it is fake?
Considering this box has not been opened in >30 years.
It has no magnetism. Most/all of the fakes have the incorrect reverse?
2/ Grading? I've included high resolution images from two angles under LED light, and 2 images under natural night. Where are the problem areas? What would they likely take into account? I'm thinking MS60+; how high might we expect?
3/ is the Die error important or not?

We're currently thinking it could fetch anywhere between $1000 and $50,000.

So, if you think you can help, visit https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ and please provide your thoughtful advice in response here.

We're looking for advice in terms of:
1/ dealing with possible auction houses
2/ understanding the grading we may be given
3/ ways of maximising the sale price?

thankyou all in advance for anything you can offer.

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captainmandrake1's Avatar
United States
878 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2025  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add captainmandrake1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You should also weight it to make sure weight checks out and follow that up with checking for the right diameter/thickness. The chunk of metal at the top on the rim and the graininess of the dragon's visage would make doubtful of its authenticity.
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macmercury's Avatar
United States
5716 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2025  12:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Weakness on the strike are off compared to the genuine example shown on the PCGS site. The sharpness of the English fonts are way off, there been forgery done in mainland way before 1938 and I also doubt the authenticity of this coin.
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Greasy Fingers's Avatar
United States
5858 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2025  01:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2025  03:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add btsimonh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thankyou for looking in detail.
Close up of the 'blob on the rim' - it's impact damage?


I'm going to see a metallurgist friend who has the right tools to weigh and measure later.

I also need to get better pictures - my Samsung s9 makes a lot of jpeg artifacts...

New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2025  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add btsimonh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
captainmandrake1, macmercury - please look again at https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ :).
I've update the images to the best resolution I can take - about 1/4 frame of 20Mpixels, and with better focus and less compression artifacts.

To me, the coin is as identical as it could be for this set of coins. Even looking around the rim, you can track the same features through the early to the late minted versions. ALL of these coins came from the same Heaton Die. I've also added size & weight - they are correct for the coin?

Your (and others') thoughts are appreciated.

br,
Simon
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts
 Posted 01/14/2025  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add btsimonh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
since this is a grading topic (where is the world coins general topic?) - anyone offer a grading for this, assuming not fake?
Note the highest definition images are here: https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ - click on any image to open it directly.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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captainmandrake1's Avatar
United States
878 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2025  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add captainmandrake1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like you really did your homework! Doesn't make sense to link it to Heaton since why would the coin be in circulated condition if someone got through Heaton directly in some way so probably acquired on the trip to Nanjing long ago. Rim hits on the edge consistent with circulation so no worries there and the numbers seem to check out. The graininess still bothers me a bit, but if you can vouch for the provenance, you might have a genuine period coin! Are there any other Chinese coins in the box?
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macmercury's Avatar
United States
5716 Posts
 Posted 01/15/2025  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I checked out the high resolution images from you web site and all the markers appearance are good, due to circulation wear, some of the dragon details appeared flat, you will have to submit this to PCGS or NGC now to get certify if you decide to do so, not sure if you will get a straight grade.
Edited by macmercury
01/16/2025 3:42 pm
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2025  08:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add btsimonh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I contacted Heritage Auctions, and they rejected it with 'aggressively cleaned' and thought one side was a heaton Die, and the other a Chinese made die. They won't take a coin unless they could predict at least $5000.

I have been creating a coin comparison 'website' software, allowing two images to be overlayed (scaled and moved), and so compared to the nth detail. It's still got some work to do on it, and I'm mainly doing it to understand this coin fully.
If/when I get time to 'finish' it enough to be usable by almost anyone, I'll publish it somewhere for use by the community, if there is sufficient interest.

At the moment, my only concern about the coin is the rim thickness compared to the images of some others I have found, but I need to go through it all again and document.

My other general concern is that the ones that sell all seem to have a brown, almost artificial, patina. This one was almost certainly kept in a sealed box with other coins for the last 40 years, and probably cleaned before that. My concern is that for my other silver coins, the one that DOES have natural tarnish, it's a 'normal' black tarnish (e.g. Victorian half crown). Totally different to the ones of this type that have been sold.
Valued Member
Portugal
444 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2025  7:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jecz79 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was going to say to say it was very much scrubbed and would lose numismatic value by current standards.
It is a pity. Big Chinese silver is expensive now. Not uncommon in my opinion but there is a mania.

As you have already noticed collectors in China like the coins showing their age. I sympathize. Yours had that stripped away.
Not surprised if some sellers try creating artificial patina to make the coins they sell appear more valuable.
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