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btsimonh's Last 20 Posts
| Estimate Of What PCGS Would Grade This At?
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
 Posted 02/14/2025 06:30 am
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ok, so this coin appears a few posts down, but I started a new thread specifically to ask what people think this may get as a grade at PCGS.
And to ask how I go about getting it graded, as the PCGS website is not clear that I can unless I'm some form of member; and it seems to depend on knowing the value, which I don't. And what service should I ask for?
The coin is well documented here with high res images and a video of each side, as well as a detailed analysis of what it is, and a link to a 'compare images' page I made:
https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/
And there are a selection sold coins for comparison here:
https://archive.stacksbowers.com/?q...9c0a08f7f1f9
Stacks' specialist in HK said it was genuine, but not high enough value for them.
Please, anyone with grading experience, add your thoughts & discuss. It is what it is, found in a box unprotected amongst about a kg of other coins, probably unopened since 1970.
I want to sell, but I want to do it right in honour of my (deceased) mother in law who unknowingly owned it :).
I need to decide if grading will add value or saleability, or if I may spend more grading than the value it may fetch.
Thanks in advance, Simon |
| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang Tung 2 Mace 7 Candereens - Analysis Of Coins By A Complete Novice
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/22/2025 08:33 am
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I contacted Heritage Auctions, and they rejected it with 'aggressively cleaned' and thought one side was a heaton Die, and the other a Chinese made die. They won't take a coin unless they could predict at least $5000.
I have been creating a coin comparison 'website' software, allowing two images to be overlayed (scaled and moved), and so compared to the nth detail. It's still got some work to do on it, and I'm mainly doing it to understand this coin fully.
If/when I get time to 'finish' it enough to be usable by almost anyone, I'll publish it somewhere for use by the community, if there is sufficient interest.
At the moment, my only concern about the coin is the rim thickness compared to the images of some others I have found, but I need to go through it all again and document.
My other general concern is that the ones that sell all seem to have a brown, almost artificial, patina. This one was almost certainly kept in a sealed box with other coins for the last 40 years, and probably cleaned before that. My concern is that for my other silver coins, the one that DOES have natural tarnish, it's a 'normal' black tarnish (e.g. Victorian half crown). Totally different to the ones of this type that have been sold.
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| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang-Tung 7.2
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/14/2025 2:12 pm
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ok, finished the first 3 pages of the Chinese search - and updated website to reflect. thankyou again for that.
The sad thing is that they will grade our surfaces badly :(.
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| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang-Tung 7.2
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/14/2025 12:38 pm
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thankyou for your kind words.
Yes, you have a fine coin of the earlier variety, and very rare, and hence very difficult to compare with others. PCGS mention one sale, and have no images. For mine, ~30 sales in the last 10 years.
Any info in Chinese language that you have on mine would be appreciated - I've seen all of the internet searches now, so have run out of resource :).
I have to ask; you have had the coin for 2 years. Where did it come from and what is that specific coin's story? Provenance seems everything in this world, and for mine it's very thin. |
| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang-Tung 7.2
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/14/2025 11:55 am
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antiqueeye - LM133B is a classification by PCGS of my coin. i.e. it defines a specific type of coin. Please could you look at my thread - http://goccf.com/t/475188 which links https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ where I have referenced ALL the images of my type of coin that I could find, and categorised them into three categories according to die damage, and has the highest res images of my coin that I could take.
I am glad your coin's patina is actually fairly similar to mine. As it is... unmodified. I do feel a lot of the auction items are lit specifically to highlight it, or that the surface has been modified to make it more attractive to buyers - even though 'real' coins don't exhibit the 'pretty' stuff.
I would really appreciate your feedback on my analysis and the coin I have - please respond on that thread?
2 weeks ago, I knew nothing about coins :(. But I'm now faced with selling something worth $1000-$50,000, and need helpful advice.
Also, if you HAVE the book, please send me a high res image of the relevant page for my coin, and I'll add it to the website? |
| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang-Tung 7.2
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/14/2025 10:42 am
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antiqueeye - thankyou for posting that Chinese link. It is indeed informative. In the case of my (LM133B) coin, it could never approach the grade of yours - after all, it was a child's plaything in the 1970's, it's been flipped, dropped, and scrubbed around in a box of other coins for most of it's long life :(. Plus it was made in a worn-out die... The patina compared to it's peers is very different, yet I'm convinced it demonstrates all the die features of the Heaton run. These would not have been easily reproduced if it was an old fake, and surely a newer fake would strive to be a 'without die damage' coin? It's been known about in the family for 40+ years, only it's importance was not understood.
I would be very interested in seeing images of 'good fake' dragon dollars, to see how close they do come to the real coins...
What I do find interesting is if both LM133 and this coin are Heaton, why is the beading so different? Is this the very first part of the die to distort, or just plainly a different design? It's odd that in the case of LM133, some of the 'beads' join to the rim, and some don't, hence my wondering if this is a die degradation from your style, or if it's part of the design.
p.s. found this https://www.liveauctioneers.com/ite...ce-1890-coin - another image for you to compare with. |
| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang-Tung 7.2
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/14/2025 07:56 am
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| Keith67 - thanks for pulling me up - and when I re-read what I'd written it was mostly irrelevant anyway, because it's not the same coin beyond the name. I do hope it's real :). |
| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang-Tung 7.2
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/14/2025 03:53 am
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Edit: Ignore everything I posted before - your coin is NOT LM133 like mine, so my research is not relevant. I was just tired or stupid - On LM133, the english text is around the dragon.
If genuine, I don't easily see it in PCGS, although it's similar to the 7 Mace and 3 Candereens here https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/1890...163335&h=pop
You have NC style character, likely from a Heaton die.
To answer your question. How to assess an old coin? With all the internet resources available these days, compare it to Every other coin of the type you can find. It's not enough just to be the right size and weight, or even composition. I can place my coin mid to late minting using the Heaton dies used for LM133, where the minting errors show a clear progression. Obviously with a perfectly minted coin like yours, this is not viable. And this also relies on being able to find comparable images.
Thanks again for posting. It's a nice coin in nice condition. |
| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang Tung 2 Mace 7 Candereens - Analysis Of Coins By A Complete Novice
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/13/2025 12:51 pm
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captainmandrake1, macmercury - please look again at https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ :).
I've update the images to the best resolution I can take - about 1/4 frame of 20Mpixels, and with better focus and less compression artifacts.
To me, the coin is as identical as it could be for this set of coins. Even looking around the rim, you can track the same features through the early to the late minted versions. ALL of these coins came from the same Heaton Die. I've also added size & weight - they are correct for the coin?
Your (and others') thoughts are appreciated.
br,
Simon
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| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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| Chinese Kwang Tung 2 Mace 7 Candereens - Analysis Of Coins By A Complete Novice
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btsimonh
New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Posted 01/12/2025 1:32 pm
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A week ago, when looking in a box of coins that we got some 30 years ago from my wife's father on his house move, we've found a Chinese Kwang tung 2 Mace 7 Candereens.
We are NOT collectors, and so need decent advice as to if/how we could sell this coin.
I have emailed Heritage auctions to ask if they would like to sell it.
We are in the UK.
I've done a lot of research in the last week, as you can imagine with the highest sale for this coin being being $500,000!
The coin we have looks very genuine, and I can't imagine how a fake could have been procured by the person who had the box of coins.
We have evidence of two possible sources:
1/ photographic evidence of family visiting Nanking (hear shaghai) in 1938.
2/ Ancestry evidence of an engineer in the family who lived within 0.4 miles of the Heaton mint.
Since I can't post high res images here, I've prepare a website highlighting my research on this coin.
What I need to know:
1/ what is the chance that it is fake?
Considering this box has not been opened in >30 years.
It has no magnetism. Most/all of the fakes have the incorrect reverse?
2/ Grading? I've included high resolution images from two angles under LED light, and 2 images under natural night. Where are the problem areas? What would they likely take into account? I'm thinking MS60+; how high might we expect?
3/ is the Die error important or not?
We're currently thinking it could fetch anywhere between $1000 and $50,000.
So, if you think you can help, visit https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ and please provide your thoughtful advice in response here.
We're looking for advice in terms of:
1/ dealing with possible auction houses
2/ understanding the grading we may be given
3/ ways of maximising the sale price?
thankyou all in advance for anything you can offer.
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| | Forum: World Coin Grading |
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