1878 P Morgan Dollar VAM-85 New Discovery! New B1 Reverse!

I see and agree with the before the 85 and 86 therory, I clearly also see that the 85 being before the 80, and the coins found are in pl or dmpl I agree that there clearly must be examples of the 86 in the same condition, just NOT found yet. It does make perfect sense to me, I think in the near future, This will come to light, ON the other hand, could the evidence be wrong, that the 85 and 86 are NOT before the 80, I think not.......

As far as I'm concerned this whole die progression needs to be reexamined from scratch.

Known stages of 22 reach die cracking of a level that precludes additional use of the die, or successful polishing. 22B's cracks rise to the level of a break at the second left star, and that stage is also heavily-clashed on the obverse.

But it's an 8TF coin, by definition earlier than the B1's.(?)

Now. My sole personal example of VAM-80 - determined by careful comparison of the reverse cracks - has some weak obverse cracking which matches that of VAM-22. But it doesn't have the cracking under the date or to the first right star, and it does have cracks from right star 4 to 5 which don't appear on any 22.

In truth, I honestly don't think you can get from 22 to 80, in either direction. Be mindful here, we're not crystal-clear about timeframes in what was a very short period of furious change at the Mint (a matter of a month or so), and the very real possibility exists that there was a point where 8TF, 7/8 and B1 dies were in presses simultaneously.

Were the obverse cracks imparted by a defective master die? Just how much of the stuff we're pointing at came from the master die and the hub?

Now, for another thing. We don't have very much photographic record of V86, yet. What we do have, though, is one plate image (the bottom one at VAMworld) which appears to indicate that 86's nose was polished farther open than any of the other purported uses of the same obverse die. How does that fit in? Once that nose it lost, you can't add it back in later. The only conclusion is, if these are all one obverse die, V86 was the latest usage of it.

Here's my VAM-80:




Here's a 22 I snagged from Heritage:



You tell me. All I know is, it's obvious to me that we don't have it right yet.

....and the VAMworld plate pic for VAM-80 has no obverse cracks. The plate pics for VAM-22A have minor cracks, and indeed I haven't found a 22 without at least a little cracking.

I don't have an explanation yet, but things are fishy.

It's like this: If they're all the same obverse, and if the die cracks are the conclusive evidence of die progression, then the 8TF did not come first.

Before I even *start* thinking more about this, I need full-face images of the V86 obverse.

In a very real sense, the only "amazing" part of all this is that they managed it at all. Prior to 1878, the Mint had only produced as many as a million Dollar-size coins in one year twice, and at that the largest single run was 1.1 million. They were then tasked with producing two million Dollars per month. It had to be sheer insanity at the Mint in March and April 1878, especially considering the design was being changed in midstream and the dies were not lasting as long as desired.

Like I said, it's not hard to imagine three or four different die types being in presses simultaneously.

The thing that *is* hard to imagine is that one single obverse die having a life so productive as to be a part of 4 (or even more) different VAMs. Especially when these were all produced essentially simultaneously. While also having the time to become "overpolished" (as is seen in V22) as well.

This simply doesn't pass the "fishy test" for me, intellectually, yet any alternative is even less-plausible. The cracks show a progression - they were obviously in the die. It's vanishingly-unlikely that identical cracks in two or more dies could appear.

Yeah, maybe stranger things have happened, but this one's near the top of the list.

Just stopping in to let everyone know that this outstanding coin has crossed over to a PCGS MS64DM and is now the Top Pop 1/0. I acquired it through a series of trades and it is now in my PCGS 7TF registry set.

I have Re-Read this Awesome Topic,

From The First Post to the End. Where has the 1878-P B-1 Reverse Come.

Since The 1965 LVA soft cover books Last listing was for the VAM 84, if I recall, Where I am asking, Where is The Set Now 2024, VAM - 86, 86A?


The enthusiasm shown in THIS topic is Remarkable and Just , After reading the Vam-85 has changed hands, I Also see More were found and A VAM -86 Was DISCOVERED Too.


Maybe some one could update the status of The 1878-P B-1 Reverse, as far as the Known to date Found VAM 85's, etc, thanks, MD

Makecents, I Could NOT stop reading the Thread, The Passion and Forensics Here are Mind Boggling to me.13-14 years AGO....

I am Very much interested in " Where the B-1 Reverse Sets have gone "..


Hope to get a Modern Day Vammer's Input, Where the Set has Evolved to and Where Might it Go.....I know This site has Earned its Kudos, I Appreciate ANY input, Thanks....