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An 1832 Cap And Ray From Durango At 24.0 Grams. Poorly Silvered CCc Or Regal?

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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 01/05/2025  8:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Here are the obverse/reverse pics. Weight 24.0 grams. Mercuric silvering over a base alloy or regal (i.e., legitimate)?





These Durango pieces sometimes do not follow all the rules if something is regal or counterfeit. Any opinions?
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 01/05/2025  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@col, not my area of expertise as you know, but I agree that it looks it has been plated or had some other coating on the surface previously. Have you determined the specific gravity to see whether it is likely a silver alloy?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 01/05/2025  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sometimes Durango pieces have inconsistent weights from the regal standard ~26.5 grams. We may assume for other Mints if generally if more than a 5% weight loss its probably debased silver or a base alloy which has been silvered which is usually <25.5 grams or less. This again at times does not work with Durango mint pieces. Just waiting for Gurney or Realeswatcher who can possibly add some insight into this annoying piece <BG>.
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 Posted 01/05/2025  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I remember a prominent dealer from Arizona at CICF.
I bought the book that was on display at his table, then went on to buy 8 of 16 non-genuine coins.
That night, in the hotel, I regretted not buying 8 more coins like this Cap & Ray as the OP posted.
The next day at the coin show I learned the remainders had been sold.
Nomatter if good or bad, I always had an unexplained fondness for old Mexican silver.
Good pieces in the regular binders, and CCC in the other.
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mysilveryears's Avatar
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 Posted 01/06/2025  11:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mysilveryears to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
an unexplained fondness for old Mexican silver.

That makes at least two of us.
However, I am quite careful about what I buy. No CCs, please, if I can avoid them.
And only higher grades, if I can afford them. It is waay too easy to get taken
to the CC (chy-neeze cleaners) nowadays.
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 Posted 01/06/2025  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi colonialjohn - just my opinion, but 24 g seems much too low to have detail remaining and be genuine. My take is that this is a counterfeit, perhaps struck with the dies that Riddell claimed were "abstracted" from the mint. Did you do a specific gravity test?
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 01/06/2025  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not my coin. Hoping Bob Gurney could isolate this one from his database or realeswatcher has an opinion. I don't collect C&R CCC8Rs. Just CCC8R Portraits. I only do XRF analysis now-a-days off of a XRF gun - never specific gravity. JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
01/06/2025 2:31 pm
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 Posted 01/06/2025  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A piece that very obviously reveals its nature... and indeed, it's one of the most commonly seen Cap & Ray CCs - Riddell 365 and/or 371. Typically plating over cores ranging from nearly base metal to "some" silver. Bob has posted about these NUMEROUS times over the years here... expecting at least (5) pages on these 1832, 1834, etc. intermarried Durango French die counterfeits when he finishes!

BTW, regarding weights, I find that French eagle Durango 1830s 8R which would be regal seem to typically come "fairly" close to standard, though there certainly can be some variance. I've noticed more variance on 1830s Zacatecas and Guanajuato that otherwise appear fully "regal"/proper alloy. I recall Bob and I debating this a few times, whether this could be a sign perhaps of somehow "non-kosher" pieces (stolen/sold dies/punches or debased back door mint products?)... I'm sure Bob has been doing more homework on the question the last couple years.
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