Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Ken's Numismatic eBay Store US and World Coins, Bullion, and Exonumia. 300,000 items to help build your collection! Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer
Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.
Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Is This Legit? Rim File, Scratched Number, Real Or Fake, MS62 Australian One Sovereign 1887m

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 451Next Topic  
New Member
VestedPocket's Avatar
Canada
21 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2024  1:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add VestedPocket to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello,

Hope you all are having a awesome day!
I am studying a 1887M 1 Australian Sovereign Jubilee Head graded MS62 NGC.
A couple of observations:
1) This coin shows rim filing on the obverse and reverse at the 9 o'clock mark. While initially it appears that it may have been dinged from falling, upon inspection under a microscope and loupe, there is a directional diagonal pattern which appears to be from filling. This is seen both on the front and back.
2) There appears to an engraving of 416 or 412 on the ten o'clock mark. This is visible to the eye (it is very small in size) however when scanned, it does not clearly show in the images.
2) Sigma test is good for the reverse; the obverse doesn't register but it appears this is so because the holdering of the coin has created an air gap about 2-3mm length.
3) Under the microscope, on the obverse, around the 12-2 o'clock mark, there appears to be some items settled on the coin; from the time of use of the coin.

Question:
1) Why did this coin get a MS62 grade? Doesn't rim filling of the coin drop its grade to details? And what about engravings? So how could this have passed the graders and is this coin a keeper at the current grade and state?
2) The substrate on the coin appears to be overlaid instead of embedded within. Therefore I conclude that it is the settling of foreign items. The microscope does give more detail and under it because of the magnification the 'settled dust' gives the illusion as if the there was white material inside and then a foil wrapped over. This would however leave marks of wear and tear where the foil meets the materials but in this case I do not see this. I therefore conclude this to be dust that has settled and was not removed during the grading. Is this a fair evaluation regarding the dust/foregin material on it?
3) Given the rim damage, the coin will probably never get an upgrade so the only thing is for this coin to remain holdered. Why did it get this grade though is baffling me.
4) The dragon's two legs/arms that are by the 4-5 o'clock position; the nails are not attached to the arm; The third nail on the top arm and the middle nail of the bottom arm. Is this normal?
5) How do I know for sure that this coin is real? I haven't observed the type of chatter that one would see as in the British fakes. Are the nails hanging into oblivion space of the coin a reason for concern of authenticity of the coin?
6) If anyone is familiar with the Australian sovereigns please do share me with me your insights.

I will be making videos of these studies on my Youtube channel: vestedpocket so if anyone is interested please do join me there.

Thank you,
Vestedpocket







Edited by VestedPocket
10/06/2024 3:50 pm
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2024  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manosgerms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

With regards to the grading, whilst it may be rim filing, the truth is that it is such a small amount of damage that I would not expect it to prevent the coin being graded.

As for the numbering, it almost certainly would not have been noticed when grading took place. This would be because A) it is faint, and B) because at sub choice for MS, there are expected to be dings and marks like this on coins - but they did not notice that it was deliberate damage.

So overall, yes it should NOT be MS62 because of the graffiti, however I can understand how it got through because the graffiti is very light indeed.

It should be noted that grading agencies often do make mistakes. but I do not believe that the rim issue would have compromised the grade even if noticed because it is too light to be obviously deliberate. Such damage could have come from sovereign money holders/clips etc. and given the limited damage it would usually be ignored for a low MS grade and considered part of regular bag mark type stuff.

As for the nails - check out this example from Heritage auctions.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/australia/...115-30004.s#

this is EXACTLY the same as yours (although it is an AU example) and has the nails technically not attached to the hand
Different dies will have slightly different details especially from that period.

As for authenticity, the best thing to do would be to compare the dings etc to the photo from NGC that they took so that you can know if this is the coin that was graded.
To me this doesn't look suspicious as a fake however.

What I can say is that, it looks particularly nice for an MS62 despite the things you mentioned so it is likely that the grader looked at it and noted at least the rim damage and adjusted the grade slightly. I do not think the graffiti was noticed but it is very light indeed

Grading agencies DO make mistakes all the time, however this one is very marginal. if you notice it then sure, but I do think this coin will pass for something like MS62 generally. The graffiti is an issue but many people might not even regard it as being graffiti - it could have been due to an imprint from some other coin pressing against it in a money clip for example.

So whatever it is, its not THAT far off being a fair grade and it can arguably be the right grade. At this level of detail nuance is very important.

Finally, it should be noted that even an MS70 grading is technically ONLY flawless at 5X magnification. Any imperfections below that magnification would technically NOT affect a perfect grading.

Oh sorry and yes the deposits in the rim are totally standard and are bits of skin and dust deposited over time.
It should be noted that UNC doesn't actually mean it was never circulated as you cannot tell that. What it means is that their is no VISIBLE wear on the coin consistent with circulation. Those are two very different things. There is every reason to expect that this coin WAS circulated for a while before someone collected it but that doesn't in any way mean it is not MS.
Edited by manosgerms
10/06/2024 3:42 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
Hondo Boguss's Avatar
United States
15757 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2024  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "filing marks" appear to be just scrapes. The "416/412" appears to be Reed Marks and a bit of Pareidolia.
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
New Member
VestedPocket's Avatar
Canada
21 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2024  12:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VestedPocket to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@HondoBoguss: Wow I learnt a new word today! Thank you. I did not know about Pareidolia. I was wondering whether the surfaces seemed to give the impression that numbers were engraved because of the way the light was hitting it. This is why I mentioned it in the post. I haven't come across engravings on coins often.

@manosgerms: I am not sure what to do; I am trying to figure out whether this is a good investment for the price point. The uneven surface of the rim which is visible to the eye from the photo is what I am trying to understand. The surface of the coin other than the smaller area of the uneven rim is beautiful and mint state. I do agree with you that this coin was in circulation before it was stored away. What I am trying to decide is whether or not this coin is a keeper given the uneveness of the rim; I am thinking about if and when it comes time to sell it, would the uneveness negate the grade to the collector.
I also found out through ANA that there are variations for the British sovereign and I am wondering if the Australian also have variations. Would you know anything about this and if there is any website specific for Australian numismatics that I can reference?

---*---
A big thank you for helping me in this study.

Vestedpocket
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2024  12:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add manosgerms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So as I said grade wise I think the rim damage is included in the overall grade. If the rim damage was very bad you would have a details grade but instead it just reduces the overall grade.
So assuming that Hondo is right (and I think that he is - I also fell for the illusion a bit) them MS62 is about the right grade for the coin.
The rim damage will not stop someone from buying the coin because they will do the same calculus. The coin does look like choice or better in terms of general appearance but the rim has some small amount of damage that compromises the grade.
So if you can get this at an AU price then this is undoubtedly great value. Conversely if someone tries to charge you a choice price its a no no unless you need it.

As for varieties here is the currently accepted variety list from pcgs

https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/au...osition/3079

Now that DOESN'T mean the every single die is accounted for. Some varieties are just not different enough to count, but it should give you enough of an idea.
Generally unless the varieties are RARE and explicit they tend not to add any value at all to the regular coin.

Bedrock of the Community
IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
United States
33743 Posts
 Posted 11/28/2024  09:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks to be correctly graded.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Pacificoin's Avatar
Canada
5124 Posts
 Posted 11/28/2024  09:55 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks ok to me.
I think you are over analyzing.
  Previous TopicReplies: 6 / Views: 451Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2025 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2025 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.42 seconds to rattle this change. Forums