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Pillar of the Community
 United Kingdom
2532 Posts |
Quote:
"Do you aspire to an OFER (On From Every Reign), or similar collection?" Yes... and No. I'm aware that some are quite difficult to get so while it would certainly be interesting to aspire to - I'm not going to get fixated on it. I'll just collect what takes my interest. This is the line I take with all my other coin areas or else there madness lies....
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6895 Posts |
Likewise here.
I collect cons struck in Ferrara since I used to travel there often for business. The more interesting types to me pre-date their incorporation into the Papal States in 1598, but I've got some later Papal issues, especially 18th c. (the mint there was closed in 1751 I believe).
Beyond that, the Papal States are a great source of coins with images of saints, which is currently my most active collecting theme. Some well known renaissance sculptors were employed there as engravers, resulting in all kinds of attractive designs (as you know).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6895 Posts |
I just enjoyed browsing through your nice collection over morning coffee. Some beautiful 19th century coppers  I think the only coins where I've got the same are the Benedict XIV Ravenna quattrino and the Pius XII 5L with St. Peter in the boat. I wasn't aware of of those 20th century types depicting St. Michael, who was not a saint normally associated with Rome, which makes them unusual. Also liked the 1967 50L with the very unusual depiction of Saint Paul on horseback (his normal "attributes" are a sword and a book). A few editing opportunities I noticed (I hope you won't mind): - For the Innocent XI quattrino, you have Background info on the Medici coat of arms that I think you meant to have up at the Pius IV giulio (which is a really nice coin!) - The Clement VIII entry looks like maybe there was supposed to be a second coin there? Under LEGEND it starts "1604 Clement VIII's crest on obverse..." but there is no coin shown with a crest. And under BACKGROUND it says "Unknown mint" but the coin you show is from Bologna mint. More importantly ... Your Clement VIII Bologna quattrino appears to be dated 1603, and it differs from KM# 5, which is only for 1604. All examples of the 1604 quattrino that I could find have the date in the exergue below the lion (not below the inscription). I could not find another example of a 1603 quattrino sale. However, it is known. The CNI lists it (Corpus Nummorun Italicorum, Vol. X, p.132, #39):  Possibly it is also listed in either the Muntoni or Berman catalogs, but I don't have either. So, congratulations on possessing a pretty rare quattrino! Edited by tdziemia
02/06/2025 9:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2532 Posts |
Hi again.
Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate the feedback and I'm happy to take any corrections. I keep doing passes of the page and finding things to fix. Everything is written in html from scratch which sounds impressive but you really only need to learn about 20 commands and then there is a lot of cutting and pasting and tweaking (which is how it's so easy for errors to creep in).
I find doing this has a number of benefits. It really forces (probably the wrong word) me to learn about the coin and look at the detail and the background of the imagery.
I can display the coins how I want, and include the details or links as I want as well rather than being forced into a preset template.
Being a website I can call it up on any device from anywhere and check what I have and don't have. It can be frustrating to be on a trip to a music festival at a Viking burial ground in Norway and an alert comes up that an auction site has a coin you might want and you need to check if you have it or not. Lets face it - we've all done it :)
Thanks also for pointing out that 1603 Quattrino. I hadn't in fact noticed that at all. Always a very nice surprise to find a bit of a scarce one. So many corrections to make...
Please do let me know if you have displayed your collection somewhere. I'm always happy to see others collections and learn something.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6895 Posts |
I'm barely organized enough to get my coins into 2 x 2 s before they get lost on my desk  But, using CCF's search function, it looks like we've never had a thread here devoted to posting and discussing Papal States coins (mostly we have one-off identification questions). Might be fun to see (and discuss) what other members have, as you say, and also to discuss the historical context, which was constantly evolving. I'll see if it makes sense to separately launch such a thread. Edited by tdziemia
02/07/2025 1:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7619 Posts |
Nice collection Bacchus2. Some of your KM numbers appear incorrect though. Same number against multiple coins and an extra 1 slipped in front of a few of the numbers, KM1147, instead of KM#147 etc. Not being picky, just want to help you make it best it can be.
View my Coins here, (NOW WITH OVER 16,800 IMAGES).... http://www.coincommunity.org/galler...hp?cat=10048OFEC count = 237 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1805 Posts |
Keep in mind KM numbers do change among editions for the same coin.
And sometimes coins just don't appear or sometimes they are in different section.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
7619 Posts |
Quote:
Being a website I can call it up on any device from anywhere and check what I have and don't have. Quote:
Please do let me know if you have displayed your collection somewhere. I'm always happy to see others collections and learn something. That's exactly the reason I built my CCF gallery. Doesn't matter where I was, I could pull it up and see what I had. (it's maxed out now though, so I can't add any more) Here's a coin I just played in the 20 questions game. I note you don't have this one. 
View my Coins here, (NOW WITH OVER 16,800 IMAGES).... http://www.coincommunity.org/galler...hp?cat=10048OFEC count = 237 |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2532 Posts |
"Same number against multiple coins and an extra 1 slipped in front of a few of the numbers, KM1147, instead of KM#147 etc" Thank for the heads up - yes there are a few errors there to fix. "That's exactly the reason I built my CCF gallery. Doesn't matter where I was, I could pull it up and see what I had. (it's maxed out now though, so I can't add any more)" That's a cool collection - I will take some time and peruse it. "I note you don't have this one" I'm pretty sure I do have it somewhere - I just haven't uploaded it yet. It's really the only example from a very short tenure - so interesting from that point alone. Yours is a very nice example. "The more interesting types to me pre-date their incorporation into the Papal States in 1598" I remembered I do have a page of European medieval coinage on my site (it's a bit of a warren I really have to sort out navigation better) - but there's only 1 "Italian" coin there.from the Viscounts Galeazzo and Barnabo https://diadumenian.com/Congressofp...0Europe.html. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6895 Posts |
One more edit, and one more attribution "assist"... The first Innocent XII coin (the 1/2 bolognino struck in Bologna) has Background comments (on Gubbio) that perhaps were intended to go with the Innocent XI quattrino. The Innocent XII 1/2 baiocco I believe is KM-53 (Gubbio) https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...duid-1497811... and ND (undated). The undated variety has legend on the obverse ending in PONT MAX, which matches yours. The ones that bear a regnal year have legend like PON M A (year). As for the reverse, there is only one variant with the 4-line inscription as shown on Numista (Anno II). All the others have the 3-line inscription like yours. If I search Numista for other 1/2 baiocco coins of Innocent XII, I come up empty (likewise if I search on mezzo baiocco in acsearch). So I think Gubbio is the only option. |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2532 Posts |
Thanks very much for those corrections. Yes - the identification for the Innocent XII 1/2 baiocco fits perfectly. If I'm reading Krause right there should be regnal years on the obverse as well but are, alas, worn off on this example. However if it isn't on Numista I could offer it for an example until a better one comes along. I do have another ask please. I have this 1823 1/2 Scudo and am researching the various elements on the coat of arms ./ heraldic achievement. It displays a knight holding a sword in the upmost third (chief), a knight holding a sword in the middle third (fess) and a skull and crossbones in the bottom third (base) but I can't seem to find any reference as to what the skull and crossbones actually represents. It's really quite a neat emblem to have on a coin. Thanks again for all your help  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6895 Posts |
It is the Pacca family coat of arms on the coin. Bartolomeo Pacca was the cardinal camerlengo who presided over the conclave (and the coinage) during the Sede Vacante of 1823. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomeo_PaccaAbove it is the umbraculum which replaces the papal tiara during a sede vacante. I think the Pacca coat of arms is a sort of riff on the ages of man: a young warrior, an old warrior, and bones (a dead warrior). But you can dig on Pacca heraldry (no pun intended) and probably get a better answer. Last but not least, that is really a lovely coin. Edited by tdziemia
02/14/2025 8:43 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2532 Posts |
I hadn't considered - "the aging of a knight" as the meaning behind the coat of arms. Very good suggestion.
many thanks
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6895 Posts |
I admit to being pretty ignorant about heraldry, and only reporting what I find elsewhere. Maybe Italian nobility approached their coats of arms differently than other parts of Europe  . I think the one that shows up most often on Papal States coins is the Medici arms (six balls); Leo X, Clement VII, Pius IV and Leo XI were all from that family. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6895 Posts |
For others who have coins from Papal States, a "gallery" thread has been started on Papal States coins (up to 1870) so as to not hijack this thread. http://goccf.com/t/476396 |
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Posted 02/05/2025 12:26 pm
