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Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit Vs. War Of Independence Mother Coin Prototype

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colonialjohn's Avatar
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1702 Posts
 Posted 01/19/2025  12:28 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
A recent pickup at the NYITL does pose an interesting comparison for this coin as either being a currently UNIQUE GNL variety (specifically: GNL# 1810-O:F/R: Lima JP-002 based on my current ongoing database of new GNL varieties) or a WOI prototype? Its metrology is 38.55 mm and 24.28 grams. I have XRF tested Chihuahua cast silver regal issues KM# 123 for the 1811-1813 types and some weights are outside and below 26 grams into 24 and 25 grams range and some are slightly debased silver with copper. This was published in a previous MNA Journal but removed several years later due to all WOI papers being removed from the MNA Journal based on new Max Keech discoveries of countermark or more accurately as suggested by Max Keech as mint stamps and his different meanings and origins as compared to the Pradeau bible of WOI. Interestingly some rare 1810 Ca (mintmark) RP (Assayer) types have been recorded. This particular piece has a different head style than seen on all previous Chihuahua Cast regals (KM#128) since at this time all Chihuahua Cast Silver pieces produced by the Royalists in the Mexican War of Independence used Mexico City coins as MOTHER COINS based on my research. Mother coins being a term used as regal issue 8R coins were used to make the cast molds and then after making the molds then changing the mintmarks to Ca and assayer to RP in the actual molds produced by the regal coin always being from Mexico City. See this interesting Chihuahua prototype for Chihuahua using an earlier Charles IV dated 1805 instead of Ferdinand VII sold at Stacks awhile back to give you a better understanding of what a WOI prototype is in this realm of collecting: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...ced-in-1810. The edge on this GNL CCC8R coin is crude and it seems each circle and rectangle or square (whatever is your viewpoint) was hand punched into the edge. So no Treasury (T) or Pillar of Hercules mint stamps as per Max Keech, no mint changed to Ca and assayer change to RP but XRF results yield a ~80% Ag issue similar in some assays to Chihuahua Silver Casts (KM#128). Additionally, the end ribbons being as KM#106.2 for the prototype matching a Peruvian Mint 1810 regal 8R in KM. Still its high silver content and cast appearance does possibly a suggest a Mexican WOI Mother Coin Prototype? Why the high silver? Still a longshot - I agree - but a piece suggesting a link to the Chihuahua pieces IMO. An interesting discussion piece nevertheless. John Lorenzo, Numismatist, USA.



Edited by colonialjohn
01/19/2025 12:52 pm
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
 Posted 01/20/2025  07:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting piece John. I lean towards your coin not being a Chihuahua prototype and instead being a cast CCC... because I don't think the Stacks "prototype" piece is from 1810 or 1811, but rather 1812 (or even a CCC, as there is a somewhat paper that documents Chihuahua pieces were counterfeited). Both types pomegranate stamps observed on 1811 Chihuahua pieces are relatively clear and detailed. In 1812 it becomes a low relief blob. The Stacks "prototype" has an 1812 stamp.

Edit - wanted to add that I think the Lima imaginary bust would have also been less acceptable to the public for a genuine issue from Chihuahua. A couple of Riddell #69-family issues use that bust, but they are dated 1818, I would think they were made outside of Mexico.
Edited by threefifty
01/20/2025 09:30 am
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1932 Posts
 Posted 01/20/2025  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Highly unlikely they would've used a Lima Indian bust as a model... Lima/Potosi emissions rarely made their way north of Central America.

Interesting piece at any rate... looks to be clearly better metal/weight than a lot of the simple "contemporary" casts you see (which are often so underweight and so obviously base metal that one wonders whether they were truly ever "fake money").
Edited by realeswatcher
01/20/2025 4:58 pm
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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1702 Posts
 Posted 01/21/2025  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher. I agree 100%. Only posting is perhaps someone has seen a Chihuahua Cast with something other than a Mexico City Regal Obverse Mother Coin. I never seen one, Its a new GNL variety currently UNIQUE. Just testing the waters ...
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