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 Replies: 41 / Views: 1,755 |
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
15757 Posts |
 to the CCF, antiqueeye! As you must know, this is a widely copied and reproduced coin. Verifying that it is genuine is not easy. First, verify that it is not magnetic. Next, the weight and measurements must be correct: 27.40 g and 40 mm. https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces5507.html
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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New Member
 Canada
26 Posts |
As a collector, I only use eye to inspect item. If nothing wrong I say OK ,it is genuine. Or anything I have question go get it resolved. Everything potentially high value must have copies. That is no be considered for an experienced collector when judging authenticity. Yes there are some basic specifications must to meet, such as weight, size, silver composition, edge tooth. Beside those data I think natural patina/tone can be the important fact to say a coin is genuine or not. I know, it is still no use because no one else agree.   |
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
To get an answer yes or no is not my purpose. I know for sure this one is a genuine prime pattern coin. Discuss how to judge a coin is good or not is more interesting.
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
Standard dimeter is 39mm an if weight bigger than 27g more should be questioning. Normally between 26.6 to 27g
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New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Edit: Ignore everything I posted before - your coin is NOT LM133 like mine, so my research is not relevant. I was just tired or stupid - On LM133, the english text is around the dragon. If genuine, I don't easily see it in PCGS, although it's similar to the 7 Mace and 3 Candereens here https://www.pcgs.com/valueview/1890...163335&h=popYou have NC style character, likely from a Heaton die. To answer your question. How to assess an old coin? With all the internet resources available these days, compare it to Every other coin of the type you can find. It's not enough just to be the right size and weight, or even composition. I can place my coin mid to late minting using the Heaton dies used for LM133, where the minting errors show a clear progression. Obviously with a perfectly minted coin like yours, this is not viable. And this also relies on being able to find comparable images. Thanks again for posting. It's a nice coin in nice condition. Edited by btsimonh
01/14/2025 07:47 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5995 Posts |
I think the OP. just want's grading options  |
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New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
Keith67 - thanks for pulling me up - and when I re-read what I'd written it was mostly irrelevant anyway, because it's not the same coin beyond the name. I do hope it's real :).
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
btsimonh - First, I talk story about this coin a bit. At beginning Government want produce a coin which is good so that people give up foreign coin and use the newly design and produced coin which is "the 7 Mace and 3 Candareens" version and put a little more silver in it. However, because it is too good, people would rather keep them in home rather than use them. Then Government made a little change of this version. They take off that added silver and change number "3" to number "2" on the coin. That is the coin posted in this topic. After a while, people find it is strange because foreign letters around Chinese era name which is incompatible with political system. So, they called back all the issued coins of this version, both "2" and "3". And this version become very rare version and hard to find.
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
Second, reply to btsimonh, you are right, it is Heaton die. And it is strict what the size and weight must be in a allowed range.
Here is how I assess a coin, first, the condition and design should be correct and look perfect. Then check size, weight, edge tooth, silver composite should be good. Last, it is also most important. the tone/patina should be natural. To see if tone/patina really need experience. But after take some time this skill can be learned.
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
I just fund an article talk about this coin which is in Chinese. But it is easy to translate to English in browser. https://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_738...102wlol.htmlThe image attached in this article look not bad. But detail such as cloud and dragon scales not same, or say little different. The big issue the edge tooth.  Compare with mine  Usually, if edge tooth is good %95 the coin is good. |
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
Keith67 - My coin could not be graded. Currently the whole grading standard or system of high end Chinese rare coins is wrong. Why? it can be seen easily that those graded and encapsulated coins are all wax mold pouring casted with artificial patina/tone. It is easy to see. Some people do not want hear this. But it is true. If you see a real Chinese rare coin and compare it is easy to recognize the feature of wax mold casting. Pay attention!
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New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
antiqueeye - thankyou for posting that Chinese link. It is indeed informative. In the case of my (LM133B) coin, it could never approach the grade of yours - after all, it was a child's plaything in the 1970's, it's been flipped, dropped, and scrubbed around in a box of other coins for most of it's long life :(. Plus it was made in a worn-out die... The patina compared to it's peers is very different, yet I'm convinced it demonstrates all the die features of the Heaton run. These would not have been easily reproduced if it was an old fake, and surely a newer fake would strive to be a 'without die damage' coin? It's been known about in the family for 40+ years, only it's importance was not understood. I would be very interested in seeing images of 'good fake' dragon dollars, to see how close they do come to the real coins... What I do find interesting is if both LM133 and this coin are Heaton, why is the beading so different? Is this the very first part of the die to distort, or just plainly a different design? It's odd that in the case of LM133, some of the 'beads' join to the rim, and some don't, hence my wondering if this is a die degradation from your style, or if it's part of the design. p.s. found this https://www.liveauctioneers.com/ite...ce-1890-coin - another image for you to compare with. |
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
btsimonh - I am not sure what you exactly mean LM133. Is that mean PCGS graded coin? As I said, all currently and before PCGS graded and encapsulated Chinese high end rare coins are counterfeited by wax mold with artificial patina/tone. Enlarge images and compare you can see detail and see that is not stamping pressed#65292; rather than it is mold pouring casted. About design, you cannot compare this that to determine one you think correct. You have to see a book to get the original design.  |
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New Member
Canada
26 Posts |
Compare the detail to see surface, deformed detail and artificial patina   |
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New Member
United Kingdom
21 Posts |
antiqueeye - LM133B is a classification by PCGS of my coin. i.e. it defines a specific type of coin. Please could you look at my thread - http://goccf.com/t/475188 which links https://btsimonh.github.io/KwangTungDollar/ where I have referenced ALL the images of my type of coin that I could find, and categorised them into three categories according to die damage, and has the highest res images of my coin that I could take. I am glad your coin's patina is actually fairly similar to mine. As it is... unmodified. I do feel a lot of the auction items are lit specifically to highlight it, or that the surface has been modified to make it more attractive to buyers - even though 'real' coins don't exhibit the 'pretty' stuff. I would really appreciate your feedback on my analysis and the coin I have - please respond on that thread? 2 weeks ago, I knew nothing about coins :(. But I'm now faced with selling something worth $1000-$50,000, and need helpful advice. Also, if you HAVE the book, please send me a high res image of the relevant page for my coin, and I'll add it to the website? |
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Replies: 41 / Views: 1,755 |
Posted 01/13/2025 7:43 pm
