Coin Community Family of Web Sites
300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Ken's Numismatic eBay Store US and World Coins, Bullion, and Exonumia. Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes.
Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.
Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

1639 Ferdinand Charles 3 Kreuzer Tyrol - Austria KM#852 Inconsistencies

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 359Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
MachinMachinMan's Avatar
Australia
1679 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2024  04:13 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MachinMachinMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers


Bought the coin above recently but when trying to catalogue it I have run into some inconsistencies.

Searched for it on Numista and came across this coin:

Issuer: County of Tyrol (Austrian States)
3 Kreuzer - Ferdinand Karl Regency; Hall
KM#852
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces74100.html

The only difference is that the lettering on the obverse is FERDIN CAROL:D:G:ARCHID:AV while on mine it is FERDIN CAROL:D:G:ARCHID:A (no V on the end)

Found a few examples that are the same as my coin and if referenced they are listed as KM#852

https://katz.bidinside.com/en/lot/8...9-km-852-n-/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353518136662
https://katzauction.com/lot/149155
https://www.numisnumismatics.com/en...9-tirol.html
https://www.cgbfr.com/autriche-3-kr...43379,a.html

However when I looked in Krause I noticed the picture of the coin has a completely different portrait of Ferdinand Karl or Charles. Also notice the portrait does not divide the date like on my coin.




Also, Krause lists the coin under "Austria". It has a separate section for "Austrian States" but Tyrol is not there.

Further adding to the confusion is that Numista has a second coin listed under Austrian States: County of Tyrol with KM#852 but different N# for the years 1647-1662 with yet another portrait of Ferdinand Charles.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces46985.html

If anyone can shed any light on all this it will be greatly appreciated.
Edited by MachinMachinMan
11/01/2024 04:16 am
Valued Member
United States
250 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2024  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are a couple things going on here.

First, the picture from KM you posted appears to show a vertical date on the right side of the portrait. My KM (1601-1700, 6th edition) shows the date split by the portrait (as the text says). What KM edition are you using?

Numismaster also shows a vertical date.
https://numismaster.com/MC_60511
I would call that a different type as the date isn't divided.

Second, there are often differences in portraits and lettering of coins from that era. (Final letters being optional is common.) Whether they are a different type or not isn't usually consistent.

To choose a coin at random from KM, look at the legend details for Stade KM# 7.
https://numismaster.com/MC_186064
Obv legend: MO(N). NO(V). CIV(I). STADEN(S)(I)(S).
Rev. legend: MATT(HIAS). D.G. R(O). I(M). S. A(V).
The parenthesis indicate letters that might or might not be present.
(There are many variations on coins where KM doesn't mention variations.)
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
6896 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2024  3:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To build on bjherbison's comments ...

When the first 3 kreuzer is struck in Ferdinand Karl's name in 1638, he is 10 years old.
When the last 3 kreuzer is struck in his name in 1662 he is 34 (and dies the same year).
It was typical for the bust to change as the ruler aged (especially from a child to an adult).

The young bust with the rounder face and broad flat collar was used 1638-1646, and the date is always divided by the bust. It looks like the Moser-Tursky catalog has this as #495,496.
An older bust with a thinner face and less obvious collar was used starting 1646. As seen in the Numista listing, there was a variant where the date ran vertically in a couple of years. Moser-Tursky has the later years as #518, 519.

Numista doesn't always follow KM exactly, and it looks like in this case the decision was to split the KM type based on the change in bust in 1646 as done by M-T.

And yes, also as bjherbison said, variations in the abbreviation of a word were par for the course back then.

Pillar of the Community
MachinMachinMan's Avatar
Australia
1679 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2024  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MachinMachinMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the replies.


Quote:
My KM (1601-1700, 6th edition) shows the date split by the portrait (as the text says). What KM edition are you using?


I have the 7th edition. No mention or picture of the chubbier bust.


Quote:
It was typical for the bust to change as the ruler aged (especially from a child to an adult).


Shouldn't each bust have a different KM#

Sounds like I should have bought Moser-Tursky instead of Krause

Also, was Tyrol an Austrian State or not?
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
6896 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2024  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Shouldn't each bust have a different KM#

Sounds like I should have bought Moser-Tursky instead of Krause

Also, was Tyrol an Austrian State or not?


These answers will be very unsatsifying, as they will just reinforce bjherbison's comments on consistency/inconsistency.

1. KM is not consistent on your bust question. If we go to a place I am familiar with from the same era (and even the same ruling family!) we see KM splitting a coin of the same ruler and denomination into three types because of the evolution of the bust:
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...duid-1555518
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...duid-1549747
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide...duid-1551232

But for the 3 kreuzer of Tyrol, they don't.

2. If I understand correctly, Moser-Tursky is a specalty catalog for coins struck at the Hall (Tyrol) mint. If you want to specialize in Tyrol coins, maybe you get Moser-Tursky. Krause gives you the world. Numista often gives you the cross-referencing between Krause and the specialty catalogs. And it's free. Also true for acsearch.

3. There was no such thing as an Austrian State in the mid-17th century. Is is a construct of later numismatists to classify coins based on modern geography. The County of Tyrol was a principality of the Holy Roman Empire. As were most coin issuers in central Europe at that time.
Edited by tdziemia
11/01/2024 8:21 pm
Pillar of the Community
MachinMachinMan's Avatar
Australia
1679 Posts
 Posted 11/01/2024  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MachinMachinMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks again tdziemia. I'll just call it Austria KM#852 and move on ...
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
tdziemia's Avatar
United States
6896 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2024  06:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Or Austria - Tyrol.

I have the same issue with my coins from "Burgundian Netherlands" and "Spanish Netherlands." Those places were actually called Duchy of Brabant, County of Flanders, Duchy of Guelders, Lordship of Tournai, etc, which is how the European auction houses tend to label them.

Whatever works ...
Valued Member
United States
250 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2024  09:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bjherbison to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Numista doesn't always follow KM exactly, and it looks like in this case the decision was to split the KM type based on the change in bust in 1646 as done by M-T.

Interesting. I'll need to look at more samples. I thought the Numista split was based on when there was a Regency vs after the Regency. But maybe the two ways to split produce the same result.
  Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 359Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2025 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2025 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.46 seconds to rattle this change. Forums