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16th Century Madonna & Child

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moose59's Avatar
United States
717 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  1:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add moose59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
picked this up at a local coin shop yesterday, came with a certificate of authenticity.


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Spence's Avatar
United States
32709 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice one @moose. Are you sure that it isn't 16th Century though? It looks to me like a date of 1523 AD when I rotate your second pic by 180°.
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moose59's Avatar
United States
717 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  2:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moose59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could be. I couldn't find any 1523 silver out there on NGC. it was all gold.
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moose59's Avatar
United States
717 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  2:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moose59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
just the date

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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2079 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like this Hungarian denar: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces36848.html (and I think the year might be 1525).
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Spence's Avatar
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32709 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  3:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok yes great point @era--that last digit certainly could be another 5. In any case, I'll fix the title of the thread.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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moose59's Avatar
United States
717 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2023  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moose59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the certification of Authenticity. This says it is from 1540 - 1600's

Edited by moose59
08/28/2023 12:31 pm
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erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2079 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2023  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, we should preferably have one of our experts on Hungarian denars having a look at this. In the mean time, let me just point out a few issues I have with the text on the certification:
- I don't think it is minted under Ferdinand I. All denars from his time has - as far as I can find out (and a Hungarian denar expert may prove me wrong here) - inscriptions around the central motifs on both sides. This coin doesn't.
- "1540 until the early 1600's" does not correspond to the year minted on the coin, which is most likely 1525. In any event, the 3rd digit is definitely a 2, so definitely the 1520s.
- "Solid silver" to me means pure silver. Hungarian denars from this time can be expected to be 50 % silver (perhaps more, perhaps less, but never pure silver).

I am not saying it is not genuine, it probably is. But I do think the attribution on the certificate is off.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16181 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2023  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Solid" is a weasel word without a technical meaning, except in the sense of "not hollow". It implies purity, without actually stating it. An 8k gold ring can be marketed as "solid gold", and they wouldn't be lying; the ring is solid, not hollow. But it's still only 8k, not 24k.

I'd also agree that it's definitely from the 1520s, and that therefore the "certificate of authenticity" is wrong in that respect.

I would assume the mass-marketeer dealer who manufactured the COA packaging bought a bulk lot of Hungarian denars, and most of them were indeed Ferdinand I, so put them all into the same COA packaging without checking each individual coin too closely.

Postal Commemorative Society, now known as PCS Stamps and Coins, is indeed a mass-market dealership and is still in operation - just looking at their website, it seems to me their target market is not the skilled numismatist who knows the market and current pricing, but rather the casual collector who just want to buy an old coin or two. All of their coins are sold in pretty custom-made wrappers like this, and these wrappers and certificates don't come cheap. Whoever originally bought it from PCS, probably paid way over the market value for a Hungarian denar at the time.
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 Posted 08/30/2023  1:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EddieDiz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am wondering if someone did some shaving of silver off the coin back in the day. It looks like part of the K of the mint mark on the right side of the coin and there should be an L on the left side. This would also have been under King Louis II.
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