1866 CA Jc 8 Reales PCGS Certified XF

But... where... are... all... the... others? ALL discovered, melted and destroyed? If there were ANY others out there, given what a rare date/mint it is and the fact that it's quality (faithful) enough to fool PCGS... just about ANY extant surviving piece would have come out of the woodwork by now, no?

Bob, buy the coin! If you get it in hand and ABSOLUTELY think it's CC, you have a crown jewel for your collection! (a REEEEEALLY expensive jewel). OR, if you can conclusively prove it, get PCGS to buy it back......... Otherwise, just flip it back around.

PS - By honest, I don't particularly mean "not cleaned" or something like that. I mean that looking at the seller's photos, the overall "texture" of the coin looks proper to me.

realeswatcher You ask;




After decades of collecting counterfeit coins, I can say with no fear of contradiction that the majority of counterfeit 8 reales whether Portrait or Cap and Ray are known from a very few exemplars (typically fewer than 10). In the three years since I wrote my book on counterfeit Portrait 8 reales, there have been more new varieties discovered than duplicates of already documented types.

I believe this lack of numbers to be the direct result of the reclamation of any small amounts of silver present in counterfeit coins to mitigate the loss. In 1820 an 8 reales was considered to be two full days wage for the average experienced mill laborer in Massachusetts. A field laborer worked 5 days or more to earn an 8 reales. When a man got a counterfeit in 1820 he would turn it in to make whatever he could on the sale of the metal. No one kept these coins and as a result survival rates are very low for anything other than the copper or German silver counterfeits.

Dave O'Harrow author of Hooknecks told me that he believed there were no more than 200 counterfeit Hookneck 8 reales in existance and that most of those were examples of only one type the Riddell # 191. He knew of at least 6 that he considered unique. He also said that there were no known contemporary counterfeits from Durango or Guanajuato.

So in my opinion the 1866 Ca could in fact be the only survivor of the type in existence. Is that worth $1000? Not to me since I own over 400 examples that already appear to be unique.

You seem to presume that the original issue of counterfeits must out of some form of necessity been relatively large. I do not know if the original output was 1 or 100 coins. There is no way to tell.

basebal21 : That's not the experience I had with them. I was on the phone maybe 15 minutes at tops, not all day. And - like I said - I asked them if one of two people that have written BOOKS on these 8 Reales counterfeits were to contact them could they discuss this coin with a grader or supervisor and the answer was a solid, abrupt NO, what am I led to believe?

And if they have such a policy that will make right any mistake(s) they make, they should post it on their website! At least state what their holder's guarantee covers! Grading is subjective as almost any coin collector will admit. Authenticity is NOT. It either is or is NOT genuine. And when ANY TPG encapsulates a coin and claims authenticity of a coin, they should have a clear cut policy explaining their guarantee of that fact.

If anyone thinks I would have paid over $2000.00 for a raw coin - even one with a return policy - they sure don't know me. I will be the first to admit I'm not the most knowledgeable person on ANY subject. But PCGS claims to be and they should stand by their reputation which to me now means NOTHING!

I'd like to know if a PCGS member can post what it actually says concerning this type of situation were it to come up. I'm not paying them a single dime to find out.

Part of what's wrong w/ the world today. No respect for the customer. A good company would have had better answers for me.

And if she is just a dim wit secretary as an earlier poster suggests, they need to replace her with someone that's not so dim. Plenty of people would love to have her job.

And I wasn't any Tom, Dick, or Harry calling in to complain that my MS62 should have been a MS63 and they got it wrong.

Again, one HUGE major consideration I make for when buying a high priced rare coin is that it is GUARANTEED authentic by a reputable TPG service. The investment value of the coin depends heavily on that alone. The grade assigned does NOT mean as much to me as the authenticity of the coin backed by the TPG. Others may and can have their own views and are welcome to them. This was the most money I've ever paid for a single coin and I'm not going to risk losing it all on PCGS's "foolish arrogance" as swamperbob so aptly put it.

I could go on and on with other PCGS issues I've had in the past. Like how two Philadelphia Morgans in same era PCGS holders were graded. One was an AU-58 and one was a MS62. The AU58 was an unc with full luster and a decent strike. The MS62 had visible heavy wear to the naked eye! I unfortunately sold those but I started to keep them to show people just how off the TPG can be at times. And then there's the case of two 1896-S Morgans I still have. One is a higher grade of XF45 I believe. The other is a low grade of F12. I've put blue painters' tape over the grade on the label and passed them around at my local coin club to see what everyone would grade them at. 6 out of 7 collectors graded the F12 HIGHER than the XF coin. And, remember, they were the same mint, same year, both encapsulated about the same time by PCGS. And - another side note - one of these 7 collectors has a daughter that he taught from a very young age about coins and she is now is a grader for NGC in Tampa (and I believe she is stationed in Singapore at a new office they opened there from what I remember hearing). He's a local dealer that specializes in US coins and is very good at what he does to say the least. She's no nit wit and I am impressed at her knowledge. I'm going to run this story by him next time I see him and see what NGC would do in this type of situation. I'll post what he says too.

But I'm getting way off the original topic of this post. And I will update it with what happens on my end. But I think everyone knows by now, I'm not happy with PCGS and have a higher respect for the other grading services now for sure.

Grading is subjective, authenticity is not.

The upcoming 1866Ca I had mentioned (which is an 1866-CaJC) was in Heritage's Round 1 of better stuff:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/wor...ption-071515


Again, a lot of stress and striations visible around the perimeter/rims, with ghosting of the legend. In the zoomed region, take note of the "1" in the fineness. Its base is sort of split open like a busted lip... The corresponding "1" in the fineness on the coin in question is somewhat like that - but that iffy point we've been focusing, that "1" of the date, is actually QUITE like that.

Also, while there's no mystery darkness right IN the void on the digit base itself... look right below that in the ghosting/shadow.

realeswatcher : I see your point and am certainly inclined to agree. The coin I have may indeed be genuine. I just don't want to risk it. Better safe than sorry. And I'm over 1000 miles away from the coin show you mention. I used to go to the FUN show every year since it was close, but limitations on my health forbid that anymore. I do appreciate your concern and would like to see what swamperbob's response is to several of the last posts. But I've already made up my mind I'm returning the coin. $2000 is just too much to risk for me.

basebal21 : I read you post twice already. Unless you work for PCGS, how would you know how they'd handle this? The woman (I have her name) that TOLD ME how they would handle leaves a LOT of guesswork on my part. She refused to answer if they would refund my money if fake, etc. And I did not pay PCGS for either the coin or the encapsulation, that's never been addressed by them as to what, how, etc on how they would - even if they do - compensate for that scenario..why don't you go back and read all of MY posts on this thread. I've repeated myself several times and am frankly tired of saying the same thing over.

You want to buy it from me? Tell you what..you join my "club" for oh, let's say $100 prepaid so I know you're legit. Then you pay me $2010.00 plus Shipping and insurance and I'll send it to you after the money clears. How about that? And - if it's not genuine after you submit it to PCGS or whomever you'd like to, I don't offer any refunds, sorry. I might, but you'd have to send me another $100 and I'll let you look behind the curtains...


Did YOU talk to the insulting woman that answered their phone in Customer Support? Like swamperbob said, may comeback & bite them someday the way they are acting.

I'm not a big fan of these companies to start with and could give a r@#'s butt about ANYTHING they have to say from here on out. I had a weak opinion of PCGS before this dilemma, it's at the bottom of my charts now.

And saying that anyone can write a book...why don't you write one if you know so much? Please don't put me on the waiting list however.

I'm trying to keep this discussion civil and it has been so far. If anyone has a closed mind, well that's just they way they are I guess. I've been back and forth on this coin since I received it. And I'm sure going to listen to all sides and make my decision on what my gut tells me. And it's NOT to trust PCGS after that call yesterday.

RealPeso
Absolutely. I agree 100 percent. Thank you for your comments and summing it up beautifully.
I've got enough stress in my life than wondering for the rest of my days if the most I ever paid for a coin was a counterfeit or not.
And I will continue to learn more about authenticating this series myself. Next on the agenda may well be a binocular grading scope. Just going to get this return going first.

For anyone who has been tracking this thread - please chime in on my new thread.

1794 SoDA 8R c/s George III PCGS genuine?

It has been read 50 times but only one reply. I would especially like to hear from those parties that believe PCGS is great at authentication of Mexican 8 Reales.