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 Replies: 17 / Views: 1,255 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
Curious piece. Generally too early for Sheffield plate, though (portraits had fully taken hold by the time that came along)...plus the design elements look perfectly correct here. However, it doesn't really look cast.
So much has happened to the piece it's hard to be certain.
"Bump". Bob, you out there?
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New Member
 Spain
15 Posts |
As I said in my previous message I don't speak English but I'll do my best.
I think that this coin is not a counterfeit in itself but that an authentic coin was used to remove silver core and replace it with copper; this method is documented although it is the most rare.
I hope Swamperbob gives us his opinion about this.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5361 Posts |
Doramas Very interesting coin. Clearly it is not genuine.
It actually does not fit the description of a Sheffield type because the thickness of the silver layer is far too great. Sheffield plate started out as a way to make inexpensive ornaments that looked like silver.
The key for identifying the Sheffield plate types is that the two metals are fused one to another. The seam is not easy to see. The metals blend one into the other completely unlike metals glued or soldered together.
This coin looks more like an earlier process for making counterfeits that has no specific name as far as I know. It also involves a very thick silver layer over a copper (or alloy of base metals). The difference is the seam between the silver and the core. The seam is usually sharp and often separates when corroded or bent.
This kind of plate is seen on older English coins, on the Dog dollars of the low countries and on various Spanish American 8 Reales.
Coins of this same nature may have inspired the experiments that ultimately produced Sheffield plate, but the fusion is never present.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5361 Posts |
Doramas
The quotation you included describes one of the methods discovered by the spy Charles de Gimbernat in his letter of 19 May, 1796 to the Ambassador of Spain. This letter is quoted in full in my book and was originally published in French and then English by Paul Bordeaux and then Spink Company in 1903. Pradeau included the list of 5 types without citation. He also re-wrote Gimbernat's descriptions and made some changes in terms.
That is a different process that removes a face from each side of a genuine coin and fixes them to a core of off metal and the whole thing is edged with solder or silver. I have spent decades hunting for an example of that type from before 1796 without success. I believe the description is simply incorrect. I did find what I believe is an example of what Gimbernat saw. It was in the collection of Mike Ringo, but it was made with silver foil pressings of a genuine coin that were attached to an off-metal core. It is an exceptionally rare counterfeit type which I illustrated in my book page 594. Mike Ringo believed it was unique since he had never seen another. In fact, it remains unique up to this time.
The process of cutting the faces off the coin, actually does exist but not in the 1700's - I have discovered many of the type I call "mined coins," but the technique was first reported in 1885.
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Moderator
 United States
64151 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
From what I understand, this is way before the Sheffield Plate era.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5361 Posts |
Coinfrog The method used to manufacture this 1758 8R was actually used well into the Sheffield plate era which began shortly after 1770 for two sided objects like coins. The original discovery that silver could be fused to copper dates to before 1750. One sided Old Sheffield Plate was used in the 1750s and 1760s for items that showed one silver side only. The double-sided process was invented about 1770 and the edge treatment to cover the copper center was mechanized in 1785 by Matthew Boulton at Soho. I wish I knew more about the way the thicker plate was made but it is still a mystery to me. BTW did you derive your moniker Coinfrog because you are French? I am half French Canadian and I have used Frog as well. I was called a frog as a kid but I did not object. I was also called a Swamp Yankee which is another derogatory reference, but I embraced that as well. At one time I had the ebay name Swampfrog. Better to embrace a slur than to get all bent out of shape over a word.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1000 Posts |
Edited by mrwiskers
07/30/2024 08:29 am
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New Member
Spain
15 Posts |
Thank you very much, Swamperbob. Now I understand the specifics of the Sheffield Plate method.
I'm a little disappointed because my coin is not what I thought but grateful for your help.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5361 Posts |
DoramasDon't be disappointed it is an exemplar of an older form of counterfeiting. Sheffield Plate coins are very common. Several are on ebay right now. If you ever want to dispose of the coin let me know, IU am still working on finding a name for the process used.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
324 Posts |
This grinding away of silver and then soldering the two faces of the coin back together with a dodgy edging strip to hide the join answers a question I've had for ages about a Taler. The counterfeiter got as far as soldering the two faces together but the heads and the tails were from coins from different mints so were slightly different sizes, so that was that as far as the edging strip was concerned! Here's a couple of not brilliant pics...   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1000 Posts |
...very interesting example, Spyro ... thanks for sharing...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1702 Posts |
Great example! Probably mercuric silver wash type silvering over a copper base alloy with an excellent cancellation cut into the coin. If for sale sometime in the future drop me a line. John Lorenzo, Numismatist.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1805 Posts |
I'm reminded of some of my counterfeits having a huge slice, cuts, scrapes or drilled holes.
I presume the damage was to tell the public that they are not genuine so as to remove them from commerce.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1702 Posts |
IMO it adds to their charm and STRONGLY suggest of being of the period co-circulating with their regal counterparts. <BG>
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Posted 06/29/2024 6:27 pm
