Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Ken's Numismatic eBay Store US and World Coins, Bullion, and Exonumia. Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer 300,000 items to help build your collection!
Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.
Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

French Pretender Coinage

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 74 / Views: 8,992Next Topic
Page: of 5
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2020  07:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The deterioration of the 3-centime reverse die is quite noticeable over the years that the coin was re-struck. The lower left, around the left-most star, begins to rust first, with the rust spreading throughout the area until the star is pretty much no longer visible and the legend starts to deteriorate.




New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2020  06:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not quite sure how to explain the change in die states for the 5-centime coins. Overlaying the images show that the same dies were used for subsequent restrikes, but there are two examples that I've found online where portions of the word "CENTIMES" on the reverse side have become obscured. Is this because the last two were weak strikes? Looking at the rest of the reverse side on both examples seems to rule this out. Is it because of rust build up in the letters of the word CENTIMES? If so, why wasn't it simply brushed away? At any rate, there seems to be a progression. In one example, the "NT" of CENTIMES is nearly missing. In the next, the NT are gone and the surrounding "E" and "I" are getting lighter.

I'd like to hear any opinions on how these changes can be explained.





Edited by cjh5801
10/27/2020 06:14 am
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  12:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The change in die state for the 10-centime piece is also rather apparent. As in previous examples, surface erosion becomes more pervasive over the years.






The changes between the last two is the most significant, but is a bit more subtle. Here are a couple of detail enlargements:




Notice the progression of the erosion following the "S" in "FRANÇAIS", around the "M" in "EMPIRE", and between the wreath and the "C" in "CENTs".

Regarding the second example in the top sequence of comparisons, note that the face of the coin retains impressions from the coin that was overstruck with this die. The original coin was apparently a skilling banco, which comes from a series of coins minted in Sweden between 1835 and 1855, which means that this particular example could not have been struck prior to 1835 (though it could have been struck at any time thereafter).

Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2079 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  04:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The original coin was apparently a skilling banco, which comes from a series of coins minted in Sweden between 1835 and 1855

No doubt, yes, a Swedish 1 skilling banco coin. Unexpected to find a Swedish connection here. Those coins were of course only used in Sweden, so someone has made the effort of collecting and bringing them (I suppose more than one coin was used) out if the country for this purpose. It's an interesting angle to the story.
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  11:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
No doubt, yes, a Swedish 1 skilling banco coin. Unexpected to find a Swedish connection here. Those coins were of course only used in Sweden, so someone has made the effort of collecting and bringing them (I suppose more than one coin was used) out if the country for this purpose. It's an interesting angle to the story.


Interesting indeed. Do you know if the skilling banco coins retained their face value after the series ended in 1855? If they were no longer legal tender after 1855 they may simply have been cheap stock for the Napoleon II propaganda re-strikes made later in the 19th Century. If they retained their face value, there might be a greater chance that they were struck by Bonapartists who were resident in Sweden in the mid-1800s.

Although Bernadotte ended up fighting against Napoleon in 1813 and they never reconciled, their quarrel was personal to a surprising degree. Bernadotte was personally offended when Napoleon invaded Swedish Pomerania as a prelude to his disastrous invasion of Russia in 1812. Despite this personal animosity, however, Bernadotte and his family retained close ties with Napoleon's family. Bernadotte had married Desiree Clary, the sister of Joseph Bonaparte's wife, of course, and their child, Prince Oscar (later Oscar I), was Napoleon's godson. Oscar also married Joséphine, the daughter of Napoleon's step-son, Eugene de Beauharnais, in 1823.

I assume that Bonaparte family members and supporters would probably have been welcome (or at least tolerated) in Sweden in the mid-1800s, so perhaps it served as something of a base for their political pretensions. Perhaps the Napoleon II dies were at least temporarily kept there at the time.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2079 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The old copper coins with values in skilling could be used until 1876, after that they could only be exchanged for new coins at the Swedish Riksbank (National Bank).

About Bonapartists, I think they could very well have dwelled in Sweden at the time (just like supporters of French royalists and revolutionaries). There has been an appetite for everything French in Sweden since at least the 18th century, and the installment of one of Napoleon's marshals as crown prince and later king didn't diminish that. Napoleon IV apparently visited Sweden (according to Wikipedia), so there must have been active supporters here at least then.
Edited by erafjel
11/06/2020 6:15 pm
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 11/06/2020  10:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. Although this particular example could have been struck later, I think it probably dates from around 1835 to 1840 or so. The reason for this is because the reverse field is still pretty much free from evidence of corrosion on the die. Napoleon II coins would have had little propaganda value after the death of Napoleon IV in 1879, so I think it unlikely that any would have been struck after 1879. The coins struck from the more corroded die probably date from the 1870s, so the coins struck from the die before it corroded must date from an earlier time.
Edited by cjh5801
11/06/2020 10:24 pm
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2024  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's another contemporary reference to coinage minted bearing the likeness of Napoleon II in 1815. From the October 16, 1815 edition of The Bath Journal (UK):




Transcription for search engine purposes: "The Quidnuncs [gossips] of Paris have been made to believe, that the Austrians have caused pieces of money to be struck at Lyons, bearing the head of Napoleon II.--The following has given rise to this report:--There certainly do exist pieces of gold and silver coin bearing such an impression. They were struck at the Mint of Lyons, when Napoleon II. was proclaimed, in consequence of the decree of the Chamber of Representatives, and during the ten or twelve days on which the Federates held power in that city.

Note: The following quote is from my post to this thread on 10/11/2020:

Quote:
In "King of Rome" by Andre Castelot, the author gives the following account of a session of the Chamber of Peers in late June, 1815:

"To shouts of 'Long live Napoleon II!' the appointment of a 'government commission' was unanimously agreed to, and it was decided that a whole new series of coins--from five centimes to five francs--should be minted at once, bearing the inscription of 'Napoleon II, Emperor of the French.' However, Napoleon II had not really been proclaimed Emperor, but merely recognized as the de facto monarch. What is more, it was not a Regency which was to reign in the meantime, but a government commission."


I wonder if the "Chamber of Representatives" mentioned in the article from The Bath Journal was the same as the Chamber of Peers that decided to mint a series of Napoleon II coins in June 1815 and if they are both talking about at least some of the coins from the "1816" essai set? The Journal's mention of "gold" coins wouldn't fit, but perhaps it was mistaken and the mintage was of copper and silver, as was the essai set. If they are the same, then at least some of the Napoleon II pretender coins may have originated from a semi-official mintage at the Mint of Lyons in 1815.
Moderator
Learn More...
jbuck's Avatar
United States
157664 Posts
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2024  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, jbuck. And just to correct my last post, the Napoleon II coins were originally minted in silver and bronze. Not copper, though I believe some of the restrikes over the following years were copper.

The news blurb from The Bath Journal appears to be a repeat of a similar blurb originally published in the October 14, 1815 edition of the London Commercial Chronicle (minus the light hearted reference to quidnuncs).

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that the 1816 Napoleon II essai series of coins were actually minted at the Lyon Mint in June or July 1815 in response to the action taken by the French Parliament (whether the Chamber of Peers, Chamber of Representatives, or both) just after Napoleon's abdication. The Napoleonic garrison at Lyon didn't abandon the city until July 11, so it would fit with the news blurb's statement that the city had continued to be held by the Federates for 10 or 12 days after the change in government.

One of the chief arguments against the Napoleon II essai series being produced by a government mint is the somewhat shoddy work on the coins. I've checked other examples of actual coins minted in Lyon around the same time and the workmanship doesn't look much (if any) better. For example, the letters in the word "Francs" do not quite line up correctly in a number of official coins minted at Lyon under Napoleon. Perhaps the artisans at the Lyon Mint simply weren't quite as skilled as their brethren in Paris.
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 01/01/2025  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've not seen an image of it, but I have seen a catalog entry for another spurious coin that was issued pertaining to Napoleon II. It was a silver coin of unspecified denomination apparently struck in Krakow, Poland, in 1829, with the image of Napoleon II (or the Duke of Reichstadt, as he was officially known in 1829) under the title of the King of Poland. The coin was listed in Catalogue Raisonne des Monnaies Nationales de France, published in 1839. A copy of the entry is attached. After a short biographical sketch of Napoleon II, the entry is translated by Google as:

"505. Silver coin struck clandestinely in 1829 in Krakow, bearing the image of the young Napoleon, with the title of King of Poland. - Its nature is unknown to me."


New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2025  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Back to the 1816 essai series of Napoleon II coins, we've earlier discussed a statement published in "Histoire Monetaire et Numismatique Contemporaine" by Jean Mazard that the coins were struck circa 1860. I think I've discovered how Mazard formed that opinion.

Google Books has a French coin catalog published in 1861 listing an incomplete set of these coins (they're missing the 2 franc piece and the 10 centime piece). Following the listing of the coins is the following note, in French:
"Toute cette serie de monnaies, au nom de Napoleon II, ont ete emises tout recemment, elles sont gravees et frappees sans gout et sans intelligence de l'histoire. La dade de 1816 ici est ridicule; on comprendrait encore 1815. Elle rappelierait la date de l'abdication."

Google Translate gives this in English as:
"All this series of coins, in the name of Napoleon II, were issued very recently, they are engraved and struck without taste and without understanding of history. The date of 1816 here is ridiculous; one would still understand 1815. It would recall the date of the abdication."

Although this statement sounds rather definitive about the coins being struck "very recently", it is not sourced and appears to simply be the cataloger's opinion, as evidenced by his statement that the series was engraved without taste or an understanding of history.

For example, it's almost inconceivable that an engraver working circa 1860 would be unaware of the fact that Napleon had abdicated in 1815 and was therefore simply making a foolish mistake in his dating. Surely the date of 1816 appearing of the coins was intentional, although we don't really have a clue as to why that date was selected. I'd also argue that the engraving of the series isn't tasteless. There are certainly alignment problems with some of the letters and numbers, but this suggests more to me that the coins may have been hastily engraved, rather than it being done without taste.

Also, as discussed in this thread, there are a number of police reports and newspaper accounts of coins issued in the name of Napoleon II dating back to the summer of 1815. Where are the examples of these coins issued in 1815, 1821, and 1830, along with other dates of distribution, if they weren't from this series? The fact that no such alternate coins have survived suggests to me that they did not exist (except for the King of Poland issue of 1829). Further, a recent origin of the coins circa 1860 wouldn't account for the apparent deterioration of the dies used for subsequent restrikes.

I think it likely that Mazard's opinion that the 1816 essai series had been struck circa 1860 was based on the note from the 1861 catalog entry. But I also think that the note itself was simply speculation on the part of the original cataloger, and doesn't adequately explain the known facts regarding the history of the coins issued in the name of Napleon II.

Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
erafjel's Avatar
Sweden
2079 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2025  02:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting information!
New Member
cjh5801's Avatar
United States
46 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2025  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cjh5801 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The earliest reference to the 1816 essai series of Napoleon II coins that I can find at Google Books comes from a catalog of an auction in Amsterdam that was to start on March 26, 1860. It's included in a bound collection of coin catalogs and starts on PDF page 597 (link to large file): https://books.googleusercontent.com...3JtYtjAsDCOg

The Napoleon II coins are listed on PDF pages 643 and 644. It's an incomplete set, as the 10 centime piece is missing.

The title page of the catalog says (according to Yandex and Google Translate) that some of the coins in the auction were from "a distinguished enthusiast" who had recently died in Amsterdam, though it doesn't specify whether the Napoleon II coins belonged to the deceased collector. However, since it presumably took some time to compile the catalog, and since it must have been issued at least some weeks prior to the March 26, 1860 starting date of the auction, it would seem likely that the Napoleon II coins must have been acquired by the auction house no later than late 1859 or very early 1860. In looking through the listing of items up for auction, the latest coin is dated 1857, and among the items up for auction is a coin catalog dated for 1858. Nothing for sale at the auction is dated later than that, so it seems likely that the Napoleon II coins probably predate 1858 and may have been a part of the collection for some years prior to that.

I'm attaching images of the title page to the catalog and of the listing of the essai series.

  Previous TopicReplies: 74 / Views: 8,992Next Topic
Page: of 5

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2025 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2025 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.39 seconds to rattle this change. Forums