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 Replies: 13 / Views: 830 |
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
I picked up this coin recently which was advertised as a contemporary counterfeit. It felt somewhat risky as I think there is a possibility it could be a modern forgery, but this was only the second (purported) LVO CCC I had seen up for sale in a few years so I took a chance. The specific gravity is correct at 10.3, but the weight is 25.35 grams. Lots of nice incorrect details when comparing to the plate coins in Ramirez - upside down 1811 like the insurgent Type 1s, inconsistent fonts in the 8, weird Zs, LV"0" instead of LVO. The edge also has a very faint colonial design where I believe genuine pieces have a plain edge. I wanted to see if you all had any thoughts on the coin or if you had seen a similar counterfeit variety in the past?    |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
Note that there have been a LOT of modern fakes of the LVO type being sold on ebay from sellers out of Mexico the past few years. Some 8R and also the minors... This piece... hmmmmm. The one thing I'll say is that PROVISIONAL and 1811 * 8R on the opposite side almost look reengraved. EDIT - I see the listing in ebay completed. Just look at what else he's selling... cast 1811 2R, fake Muera Huerta, etc. - obvious modern material. He occasionally offers "legitimate" contemporary counterfeits... but mixed in with many modern copies. He also sells under some ID like josecoinsandnotes... forget the exact name. Search for some of the descriptive terms Carolina uses and you'll find it. Edited by realeswatcher
05/25/2023 4:27 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
117 Posts |
Thanks realeswatcher. I did see the other modern forgeries mixed in the seller's other items... made me a bit worried about this coin but looked like a "legitimate" enough CCC (as you said) to take a shot. Could be an expensive lesson. I hope to get an XRF test eventually to see if the silver shows anything modern.
I had the same thought on re-engraving on the 8R and 1811. I'll have to try to get better pictures - under my cheap magnifying glass it looks like a weak strike but I am not knowledgeable enough to diagnose subtle tooling.
Edited by threefifty
05/25/2023 4:52 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
This appears to be this same specimen... guessing it sold 3 or so years back. worthpoint.com/worthopedia/reales-lvo-1811-zacatecas-2025486163 "coin for study" Digging on Worthpoint further, here is a different specimen from the same mold.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
I don't know enough about the generally accepted varieties, but you could definitely sell me on this being a contemporary counterfeit... given how crude it is for the "neater" style of these and just looking at the coloration of the metal. From a quality collection that was sold on ebay a few years back. worthpoint.com/worthopedia/mexican-silver-coin-1811-lvo-real-2064755553   |
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
Thanks again - you called it. Expensive lesson it is lol. I knew it was probably a bad idea to buy it but the temptation was too great. I'll have to use Worthpoint more - didn't realize they had ebay archives. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3188 Posts |
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
05/26/2023 09:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
I saw this one coming up in Soler y Llach's auction. It doesn't seem like an exact match like my modern forgery, but the date still looks weird like it was re-engraved on the die. I am leaning towards forgery since the flaws seem to match across the two coins and in both cases the weight was lower than standard. https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=l...8583&lot=412 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1702 Posts |
I developed a new method with Michigan State University Material Analysis Laboratory using SEM/EDS in a three-tier approach: Map Sum Spectra (metal assay)/ Microstructure Photomicrograph (determine if internal structure is cast or struck)/ Point & ID Analysis (spectrum area assays within the microstructure for more definitive metal assay values). A recent completed draft article has been sent to a leading Numismatic Journal for review involving regal punch looking CCC Kleeberg 2R's and their assays/microstructures. These type of LVO 8R's which I own TWO from a previous Mexican auction house. This three tier analysis would prove interesting. I would use a Chihuahua Cast 8R (1811-1813) as a standard cast for comparison and look at their trace metal signatures and microstructure compared these to an established cast silver 8R (i.e., 1811-1813 Cast Silver 8R Chihuahua) and utilize these cast Chihuahua issues as cast silver standards. Sometime in late 2025.
On a separate note at one time I did do an XRF overview of the Chihuahua cast and restrike issues for a MNA Journal but when Max Keech found new information on their mint stamp origins all previous War Of Independence Issue 8R papers were deleted from the MNA archives appropriately so as not to add confusion as to their mint stamp origins so as to reflect Keech's new information on their origins. In this sweep my article was deleted. In this study I found some issues low in their silver values and some Chihuahua casts missing their third side ornamental features and being plain edge. However with this new analytical SEM/EDS method this subject is a whole separate investigation.
Edited by colonialjohn
10/19/2024 11:15 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
threefifty, it's absolutely an exact "die" match to the one you posted and the 2nd one I found in Worthpoint's ebay archives. The diagnostics are unmistakable. Cropped them identically for comparison - it should be obvious. They are definitely (3) different pieces... enough unique strike (casting) features, ticks, etc. to discern that conclusively. Also, interestingly... note how PROVISIONAL has not been reengraved as on the first two pieces we've seen. That must've been an earlier version of the mold where they had only done the date. BTW, I don't think this Soler y Llach piece is the original base coin.    |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1702 Posts |
Mine are different the first one is 1811 KM#190 type (40.56mm, 23.6 grams) with no real coin ring and with retrograde N's in FERDIN VII and with an XRF of 90% Ag with ZACATECAS as ZAGATECAS. Ex. Mundo de la Moneda Auction - Lot#589 6/15/2019. The other an 1810 KM#189 type (40.5mm, 26.0 grams) with a good coin ring seems to be of hand cut dies with regal level silver (SEM/EDS verified) again another Daman Douglas auction piece - Ex. Mundo de la Moneda, March 2018 Lot 1348. The "A" in PROVISIONAL of the crossbar almost looks like a crude indentation. If anyone owns these LVO's from above this would make a good study group as with three-fifty's piece which appears as a cast silver with this so-called low "O" in LVO. Keep this project in mind for 2025 three-fifty and realeswatcher.
Edited by colonialjohn
10/19/2024 3:22 pm
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
John, thanks for responding. I saw the pictures of your two pieces on your other group a while back. My opinion is that your Type II "royal arms LVO (ZAGATECAS) is a CCC. The 1810 Local Arms 8R I am not so sure about... I think it is either genuine or a modern forgery as it is almost too well done. I think your new analysis will be helpful for that piece, perhaps not necessary for my forgery as there seem to be many others out there from the same mold.
Thanks for taking a look, realeswatcher! This "mold progression" is entertaining. I wonder if the forger was trying to avoid creating a bunch of exact copies since the originals vary so much.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
Quote:
I wonder if the forger was trying to avoid creating a bunch of exact copies since the originals vary so much. I would assume it was a case of simply trying to improve it more.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 830 |
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Posted 05/25/2023 4:51 pm
