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 Replies: 10 / Views: 696 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1000 Posts |
I need some opinions on whether or not this is a genuine Potosi 2R or a dang good counterfeit ... ...bought on ebay from a reputable seller who isn't a coin collector, but a searches old buildings & grounds for artifacts, N.E. US area ... he had this listed as "Unknown coin / cut", & had found it in an old building in Saratoga, NY ... sold it to me for $14 & a little postage ...  ...I think it may be a contemporary counterfeit, as the planchet is way too thin (1mm) for the Potosi 2 reales of the early - mid 1700's ... they are usually "chunky" (2-2.75mm), & this is too thin ... it is a struck piece, not cast. It has circulation wear to the surface, with many test cuts, & has been clipped, & cut for change ...  ...the details that are discernible look good & accurate, but I can find no example of a Philip V Potosi 2R with a dot above the 2, between the numeral & base of the crown (pillars & waves side ...  ...Thanks for viewing & sharing any opinions .... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3188 Posts |
I have a cut holed Guatemala 1R from the 1730's that looks similar. I paid about what you did, and the dealer was happy to be rid of it. My guess is that yours was real enough to pass for money in the 1700's, counterfeit or not.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1000 Posts |
"I have a cut holed Guatemala 1R from the 1730's that looks similar. I paid about what you did, and the dealer was happy to be rid of it. My guess is that yours was real enough to pass for money in the 1700's, counterfeit or not" ...from the mid-1500's, & throughout that era,holes were commonly put into coinage in the Americas, as a means of safe carry. It was a common method among indigenous folks & sailors, alike ... a practice carried forward to our early American colonies, as Spanish silver circulated widely (England didn't allow English silver used in the colonies ... ). ...I have little doubt this "bitt" circulated widely, as it was clipped to make correct change, and the number of test cuts indicate it's acceptance. ...I suspect counterfeit because of it's weight, & the flan is so thin (1mm) that I doubt the full coin would have been even close to the (Potosi) mint's standard of acceptance @ 6.7668 grams. ... HOWEVER ... the little detail present on this "bitt" shows it was struck, not poured in a mold, & the visible details are good. ...Most contemporary counterfeits were molded, & the details were usually poorly represented (see pic below) ...  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
Quote:
I have a cut holed Guatemala 1R from the 1730's that looks similar. The style of the Guatemala "cobs" was completely different - used the same design as Mexican struck pillar coinage of 1732-71.
Edited by realeswatcher
09/19/2024 6:30 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
The 1738 4R shown is a modern Central American tourist-trinkety imitation/replica. Dates back to the 50s or 60s, around then:  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
Aside from that, the cut 2R in question is indeed some sort of contemporary counterfeit or imitation. Just common sense, this was clearly a piece cancelled by mutilation. Reasonable correctish design elements from what's visible, but at 1.4g this fragment would be way too light for the amount of coin surface we see remaining. Also, if that 1mm thickness is accurate, obviously super thin.
Almost wondering if it isn't some sort of imitative "pseudo-cob" issue (e.g., Honduras, Nicaragua of the 1820s)... but the style doesn't really immediately match.
Curious piece.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1000 Posts |
@realeswatcher ... thanks for the info on my "4 reales" ... I've always thought it was a contemporary piece. I see the several varieties you show pop up for sale on ebay frequently. I appreciate the clarification. ...As to the little "bitt" ... the 1mm measure was taken with accurate calipers, & the weighed on an accurate & calibrated scale. We agree that it is most likely not genuine, because of the (potential) diameter, thickness & weight all point to a much smaller coin. The puzzling part to me, is that the coin appears to be hand-struck, rather than the common practice of mold-casting contemporary counterfeits. ...coin dies were very expensive & hard to make back in that period. Unusual that someone had dies cut to counterfeit cobs ... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1932 Posts |
While not super-common, I HAVE seen a number of struck pieces from hand-cut dies over the years which present as contemporary counterfeits, rather than crudely or at least not exactly accurately done modern "garage project" type replicas/imitations/fakes.
But again, not super common, and old casts that appear contemporary are more commonly seen. That's part of the idea of this possibly being an imitative "pseudo-cob" as noted above.
Would be nice if there was more of the piece there to get a better look at the design elements, but that's the nature of what it was in its life.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
15756 Posts |
Any chance you could get it tested with XRF, mrwiskers?
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1000 Posts |
@realeswatcher: thanks for your input. Other than the well-known Caracas, Ven. 2 reales milled coin, are there any other examples of imitative "pseudo-cobs"?
@ HondoBogus: I'm looking for an XRF tester here in the Memphis, TN area...I have several coins I would like tested ... anyone have a suggestion, & what is the usual charge for these services?...thanks for any info ... ...
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Valued Member
United States
117 Posts |
Mr. Wiskers - to answer your question, there are other types of imitation cobs, from Tucuman, Argentina, and Leon, Nicaragua. I'm new to those types but thought I would add to the discussion.
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Replies: 10 / Views: 696 |
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Posted 09/18/2024 11:59 am
