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Seeking Some Guidance On Token Rarity

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 528Next Topic  
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DOCC's Avatar
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1150 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2024  11:03 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
This token was found metal detecting a few miles away from the original town of Taft Montana. Taft was established in 1908 and burned to the ground in 1910 during the Great Burn. It had quite a reputation https://spokanehistorical.org/items/show/465

I have scoured the Internet, reverse image searched, and parsed numista & tokencatalog looking for a match. Nothing similar, not even remotely. There are a few Headquarters Saloon's in Montana however each and every token differs greatly. I am confident this is from the Headquarters Saloon in Taft.

So, without historical reference points I am at a loss. Any input on:

1) Who sets the rarity numbers on tokens like this?
2) I know it will DETAILS - ED but should I consider submitting to a TPG?
3) It has a robust DDR - do values increase with minting errors on tokens?

Thanks Much




I swing a metal detector and have a knack for finding dirty old coins.
Dirt coin restoration projects - https://www.prodetecting.com/restorations
Dirt coin restoration blog - https://www.prodetecting.com/blog/ccaw
Dirt coin dig videos - https://www.youtube.com/@prodetecting
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
157720 Posts
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1847bill's Avatar
United States
401 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2024  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1847bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice with a lot of history. It's not worth grading because they can't identify it. I have a token and sent it in. NGC sent it back.

List it yourself with tokencatalog.com.
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DOCC's Avatar
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1150 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2024  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ya, I get the whole provenance thing but it has to have a baseline. Someone started each process.

Already populated tokencatalog.

JBuck - can you remove the last ) from the link. Seems the URL generator decided to add it to the link, I'm post edit window.
I swing a metal detector and have a knack for finding dirty old coins.
Dirt coin restoration projects - https://www.prodetecting.com/restorations
Dirt coin restoration blog - https://www.prodetecting.com/blog/ccaw
Dirt coin dig videos - https://www.youtube.com/@prodetecting
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jbuck's Avatar
United States
157720 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2024  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
JBuck - can you remove the last ) from the link. Seems the URL generator decided to add it to the link, I'm post edit window.
Done. Not sure how I missed it. I usually fix them as they pop up.
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16181 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2024  12:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1) Who sets the rarity numbers on tokens like this?

Historically and generally, the people who write the book set the rarity numbers, and this is usually based on their own observations of the marketplace and of what other token collectors have in their collections.

Quote:
2) I know it will DETAILS - ED but should I consider submitting to a TPG?

I wouldn't have thought it worthwhile, from a return-on-investment point of view. Even very rare tokens aren't worth much, simply because demand for tokens is much much lower than for coins. You need something else to pump up the demand (such as a famous name or historical event linked to the token-issuer).

Quote:
3) It has a robust DDR - do values increase with minting errors on tokens?

Errors and varieties are of interest to the diligent numismatist but tend not to have too much increase in value for medals and tokens, simply because quality control for a token mint is not expected to be as high as for an official government coin-making mint. Plus, there's literally nothing stopping a token mint from producing artificial "errors" and selling them, if they thought that would make them money.

In this case, two observations. First, it's not a " DDR" since token dies would not have been produced by hub transfer the same way as mass-produced coinage dies. These letters have simply been re-punched directly onto the die, not entirely unlike a repunched mintmark.

Secondly, we don't yet know if it's actually a "variety". If every single example of this token has the exact same repunched letters, then it's not a "variety" - just an unintended quirk of the design.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Hondo Boguss's Avatar
United States
15757 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2024  02:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap did a wonderful job answering the questions, but I'll add a bit.

Quote:
1) Who sets the rarity numbers on tokens like this?

In many cases, there are records from token producers as to how many were ordered / delivered. In the case of a maverick like this, we can make estimates based on the potential need. With only 3000 people in Taft, it is not likely that the saloon owner needed a great number of such tokens. I would set an upper limit of 50, with 25 much more likely. They didn't need many because of how they were used.
R factors can also be changed. Within the last few months, someone listed an R8 token (supposedly 4-6 known) on ebay and there was frantic bidding. A week later, the seller listed another. Then another. Then listed a cigar box full of them they had acquired.

Quote:
2) I know it will DETAILS - ED but should I consider submitting to a TPG?

Most token collectors are tightwads like me, and would prefer to not pay extra for the plastic. We can evaluate a token better than any TPG. Also, grades are not a consideration when a token is unique - people will bid on it regardless of condition (within limits, of course). There is not much turnover of rare tokens - they tend to be held by a collector for decades. When one does enter the market, there is fierce competition for it.
I have seen slabbed tokens, but these are usually pristine examples of well-known and highly sought-after ones.

Quote:
3) It has a robust DDR - do values increase with minting errors on tokens?

I've never seen this to be the case. I have seen people asking really high prices for some errors, such as double-struck or off-center strikes. Such things generally don't interest me, however.
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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DOCC's Avatar
United States
1150 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2024  09:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DOCC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awesome info SAP & Hondo. Thx a ton.

I'm not into tokens all that much but do find quite a few unique (unidentifiable) ones. While researching this one I stumbled on to an auction house with some final hammer prices well into to 100's. Just found that kind of surprising and figured from now on, I should be a bit more diligent with evaluating.
I swing a metal detector and have a knack for finding dirty old coins.
Dirt coin restoration projects - https://www.prodetecting.com/restorations
Dirt coin restoration blog - https://www.prodetecting.com/blog/ccaw
Dirt coin dig videos - https://www.youtube.com/@prodetecting
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Hondo Boguss's Avatar
United States
15757 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2024  11:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Docc, do an ebay search for Montana saloon tokens - you'll be surprised at the prices.
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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