1776 8 Reales. Good Fake Or Real Deal?

I just had a coin shop tell me this coin is worth approximately 40$..... That can't be correct can it?


Honestly if you have any for-profit thrift shops near you, go check out their dumpsters.
Those are only the significant items, in the 10 ish months since discovering this place I also have found 10,450$ (paid to me by a pawn shop@ 70% scrap market value at time of sales spread out thru the year) in gold and silver jewelry that was thrown out either by mistake or for lack of knowledge on what's real or not by the employees.
I'll upload some pictures of the crazy finds after work!

Hello and

The coin has been misidentified. It is not from Chile, it is from Potosi, Bolivia. Silver coins of Chile are far pricier than Potosi where silver was the primary products of the mine.

From appearances, it looks like it could be genuine. But as is normal a few tests will be able to eliminate the most common fakes.

Fake coins are of two types. The first are Contemporaneously Circulating Counterfeits (CCC) made to deceive merchants, bankers and ordinary people in day-to-day business. These can be valuable. The second are Numismatic Forgeries (NF) made to deceive coin collectors. This type are nearly worthless. I usually pay at most $15 over melt value.

I see a couple things that cause me to be concerned about the coin being a fake of some type. First there appears to be a line on the reverse side at the end of the dentils between the letters H and P of HISPAN. The die of any original 8 Reales of this type should have dentils that run to the absolute edge of the coin. The dentils should NEVER terminate before the edge of the coin. Hard to tell from a picture however, but please check to see if the dentils stop before the edge.

My second concern is the broken castle punch used to manufacture the die that made the coin. In my book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales" (2014), I note on pages 150 and 151, a series of coins from the Potosi mint bearing dates from 1774 to 1784 and a bowl bottom from 1789. In actual use in a high-volume mint like Potosi an individual punch would last a very brief time. A period of 15 years in service is unheard of. In my own collection, I have several examples in off metals which are recently made.

Some collectors insist that they own examples that are genuine and use good silver. I will take them at their word, but would still like to see weight and density records as well as an XRF test including Arsenic and Gold as trace contaminants. Then provided the weight is about 26.8 grams, the density is 10.3 and the proper amounts of both Arsenic and Gold are in the metal, I would cautiously view the coin as possibly genuine.

Numister

It is well known that most counterfeiters producing coins to circulate as face value, "age" their works before they enter circulation, that was done so that the coins would not be reviewed too closely when being passed. The goal was one quick pass, and the profit was made.

Makers of Numismatic Forgeries have the same goal as counterfeiters because they too do not want their work examined too closely. So, they do wear their coins. How they do this I am not certain about. But I do know that they do it. Between 2010 and 2013 I detected many identical but worn Charles IIII 8 Reales from the Mexico City mint that came from China. I ended up buying 6 examples. They are identical except for the level of wear present.

I believe I see the same type of a wear pattern here.

realeswatcher

I know that you are a champion of the other side when it comes to several coins. I do not presume that the coin is either genuine or not UNTIL a scientific range of tests are run on the coin.

The Potosi mint is as I also understand noted for its poor control of assay and somewhat substandard die craftsmanship. However, poor craftsman ship is not involved here. When dealing with metal fatigue you need to consider how long die punches could possibly survive when they are used to make dies. Remember die steel used for making working dies is virtually in the same class as the punches used to create the impressions. The difference lies in the ability to soften iron in one case and harden it in the other. So how long did die punches last in practice? That is the key question.

Based on what period records still exist (mostly for Mexico City) die punches were replaced quite often. Matrix sets of punches were secured by the mint officials and were replaced when breaks occurred. A die maker was retained on staff for that reason. Based on discussions I have had with Dave O'Harrow, he believed that the smaller punches were replaced several times a year.

When he wrote "Hooknecks" it was along with his partner Clyde Hubbard one of the very few American citizens who has ever been allowed to examine the collection of the Mexico City mint including all of the dies and die making equipment that are normally kept from view. I had lengthy discussions with Dave O'Harrow on the topic of just how long die punches survived. That was back when I was considering an attempt to do a study like Overton did for US Bust half dollars. He cautioned against any such attempt because of the enormous number of dies used annually in all high output mints. The number was not in the hundreds per year but thousands. We also discussed individual die making tools and how dies were made. He indicated that a blacksmith was employed specifically with making die punches. Hubbard was the source of the information I put in my first book about how coin blanks were edged. His description of the process was what I used for my book.

However, I see it is far better to rely upon science to settle the issue. Weight is one thing, but density is far better as a test of authenticity. XRF is better still.

You said about the coin
Perhaps it is, but it could equally well be artificial toning applied by a very good Numismatic Forger.

I will wait on making a decision until more scientific data is available.

30FromTheNorth

Thanks for posting the weight. It is within normal range for an 8R but that is absolutely no guarantee that the coin is genuine.

The other four coins you posted represented a wide range of collecting types. Were they found together?

If all of those items were found in the "same location" they may have come from the same source. When I saw the grouping, I wondered if it was part of a stolen coin collection.

So, all the coins came from a dumpster. The charity is definitely doing a very poor job of reviewing donations. Coins should always be referred to a dealer or collector because virtually every coin has some value.

I find it difficult to believe coins are not collected for periodic review. Perhaps you could go to someone in charge and ask about the coins. For a couple bucks they might agree to toss them all into a box. That way you could possibly help them out.