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1878 7 Over 8 Tail Feathers

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Pillar of the Community
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1675 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2023  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
@Bump111



looks like it to me.
Pillar of the Community
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1675 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2023  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
...further thoughts:

when I started reading last night I started at VAM 38 because of the number of feather tips I see poking out from under the 7 feathers. I see more similarities to 38 than 41. when I get home later i'll post more pix, I'm still at my job.

many of the pix I took of my coin are very similar to the pix on VAMworld's VAM-38 listing, so I tend to lean that way.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3113 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2023  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list
Bingo.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
Pillar of the Community
United States
1675 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2023  12:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
yes, I am pretty sure we have solved this one. the coin I have is a VAM-38, not a VAM-41, as the note that came with the coin claimed. now I just have to catch up to the end-point with pictures & commentary. I'm not finished with this thread yet, I still have a bunch of pictures to nab & post.

for now, though, I want to point out one thing:

i questioned the doubling I see on my coin on the inside of the nostril. well, I saw it on my second read-through of the VAM listings for the 7/5 varieties... the following pic is from the VAM-38 listing on VAMworld:



there's the doubling in the nostril.. it was listed, I just didn't immediately see it.

my coin bears all the markers for a VAM-38. I will be nabbing more pictures & posting them as I get time today, tmrw, this week... whenever I can manage to do it. I'm getting there.
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1675 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2023  05:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list

Quote:
Looks cleaned, but perhaps it's just the lighting angle.


i'll eventually come back around to that, Coinfrog.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1675 Posts
 Posted 08/25/2023  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
let me set this up correctly before I launch into pictures.

i claimed dibs on this coin almost two weeks ago. this is how it was listed:



no picture accompanying that, but if I wanted to see it & if I would have asked, the seller would have gladly sent pix. I didn't need to see it before buying it. I claimed it, got it, and bought it, sight-unseen. no problem.

after getting the news that I had acquired it, my mind locked on: 'oh boy, a cool VAM is coming!' I was pretty excited about being able to potentially attribute a new coin. hunting down it's VAM became fixed in my head as I eagerly awaited it's arrival. the thought of a new coin to study sent me into orbit.

after about ten days I finally managed a trip to the post office to fetch it & bring it home. this is the flip it was in:



i felt like someone shot my balloon with a pellet gun. I didn't want to be told what it's VAM is, I wanted to figure it out myself. there it is on the tag. VAM-41, 7/7 tf. when I read that I was kind of let down that I was apparently not going to get to figure out it's VAM, but seeing the '7/7' stoked me. so I opened it up & got the coin out to study it. because it was listed as 'strong variety' I was anticipating seeing at least 4 feathers.

i counted the tail feathers first thing. 5. I see only 5 tail feathers, not 7.

i went to the VAMworld listing to re-examine VAM-41. I had been perusing the 7/8 tf varieties in the week before I fetched the coin, so I wasn't going in cold, I had been priming my brain that week, reading about all of the 7/8 tf varieties. I read & studied every listing in the 7/8 section.

the one that most resembled my coin is VAM-38. according to the listing,

"The VAM-38 can be quickly identified by the over polished area separating the eagle's leg & wing along w/ five remaining tips of the 8TF reverse under the reimpressed 7 tail feathers. The tips are located between tail feathers 2 & 3, 3 & 4, 4 & 5, & under feathers 5 & 6."

and,

"Obverse II/I 9- Doubled LIBERTY with shift to left; largest shift of this kind known. All letters in E PLURIBUS UNUM and all left and right stars doubled. Doubled date with 1 doubled on both sides of shaft, first 8 doubled at top outside and inside right of upper loop, 7 doubled on right, second 8 doubled on inside right of upper loop.
Reverse B/Ah-Five tail feather ends showing; between 2 and 3, 3 and 4, 4 and 5, and under 5 and 6 TF. Design remains in leaves of branch, below branch on left, and around wreath bow. Eagle's right wing separated from leg due to over polishing."


I've already posted pix of the tail feathers and LIBERTY from my coin, up above in the thread, and now i'll post pix of all the other attributes, starting with the over-polished feather on the reverse:



there it is (or, isn't)..

is there doubling of all those other elements, like the date?






i would say so. neat little die chip between the right outer loops of the last 8.

doubling on all the stars?

(starting with the star at the neck V, going clockwise up the left side to the E)






the fifth star looks like it could be tripled.



all of those stars are exhibiting some degree of doubling.

by the way, there are cool die cracks around the obverse & reverse, you'll see them running thru the letters, numbers & stars, faintly in some places.

i am out of time for now, I have to make dinner & prepare for my nightly ride. it's 11:30ish pm as I peck away at this. I'm needing fuel.

more coming soon. lots more pictures to share.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
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 Posted 08/26/2023  04:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list
Very nice MrPink2018! Man, I should start getting into VAM's myself at some point. It would make a nice project.
Errers and Varietys.
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1675 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2023  04:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
E&V, I started nosing into them around 2010, went as far as to register myself at VAMworld, and I spent some time studying morgans (when I could get my hands on some), posting pictures (when I had a laptop & usb microscope) & chatting with some of the ppl there, but even though I drifted away from being a regular poster I've continued to use the site for the VAM listings.. I can't remember my password or username that I originally had, likely attached to a now-defunct email address.

i totally dig them. most of the morgans that I've acquired expressly for trying to determine their VAM designations end up being near date/far date, etc., although I've picked a few interesting ones. it's great exercise for my coinhead.
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United States
3113 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2023  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list
Great detective work, @MrP. And, excellent closeup images. The Morgan dollar is an appealing coin for many reasons, but primarily because of its crisp design elements, size, history and timing. Hand working the dies made for interesting anomalies that are pretty easily seen. The fact that extensive die studies have been done on a population largely preserved in manageable condition means that there are lots of data available to the enthusiast. These are some of the primary reasons so many people have been drawn to these coins.

I applaud your enthusiasm and offer my congratulations on your acquisition and best wishes for your continued endeavors.

Edited for spelling, as usual when sausage fingers attempt reply on a small cell phone with fake keys the size of fleas.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
Edited by Bump111
08/26/2023 07:28 am
Pillar of the Community
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1675 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2023  10:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list

Quote:
reply on a small cell phone with fake keys the size of fleas.


yes.... it took me an hour and a half to compose that lengtheir post via cel phone....
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1675 Posts
 Posted 08/26/2023  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
...okay, I left off posting pictures of doubling of the obverse devices, so that's where I start here.

more obverse stars, going clockwise down the right, from the M of UNUM to the date's last 8, do we see more doubling?




that's the star that would be broken if it were a VAM-41. it's not broken, but it looks to be missing a layer of metal on that one point.




all of the right side stars exhibit some degree of doubling.

E PLURIBUS UNUM:
















yep, all of those letters are doubled.

design remains below the branch and around the wreath bow?




check.

i think we solved this one. just one more major thing I need to address... in the next post... but... breakfast first...
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 08/28/2023  10:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
...I'm going to have to attempt several more pictures for this, because I'm not convinced the coin has not been cleaned, or at the very least a bored human treated the coin rather badly with something like a toothpick...

after coinfrog's comment I began to examine the coin's surfaces, particularly in the fields (instead of the devices). I see 'scribbling' remnants in the fields, both sides but more prominent on the reverse.

more pix coming soon. sometimes hard to do with a cat around.
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1675 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2023  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
the following pictures show why I am not convinced this coin has not been cleaned. notice all the scribbles, scratches and scrapes/scuff marks in the fields, obverse & reverse. some pictures are better than others, but you can easily see the pattern.. a systematic and tedious undertaking, taking the time to use a 'tool' of some kind get into the larger field areas to not-so-gently remove cosmic crud from a coin. see what you think:














Pillar of the Community
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4312 Posts
 Posted 09/28/2023  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list
Nice pickup!

This is one of the Morgan varieties that we just published on Wexler's site, WDDO-002/WDDR-002: http://www.doubleddie.com/2882737.html
Pillar of the Community
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1675 Posts
 Posted 10/08/2023  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MrPink2018 to your friends list
thanks for that, Tanman2001. I clicked in to read about that on wexler's.
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