Stephen420's Last 20 Posts
| And Then There Was One: PCGS
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
 Posted 06/01/2015 8:07 pm
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| I meant to say I had been away from this group for a while, not that I had been away from collecting. And I don't mean to sound "optimistic" about anything. I actually think my observations are, unfortunately, pessimistic if not down right cynical. But all that any of this really means is you cannot judge a coin by its holder. Both companies grade crappy coins and both companies grade great coins. If the trend appeared to be in the other direction, that would be where I'd be headed with my slabbed coins. Recently I saw (in hand) two Sac dollars in PCGS holders that said "MS67" and I could not believe it. They both had multiple bag marks in the fields. They were horrible looking. It's just a fact of life that a grade on any holder isn't enough information to accurately describe a coin. |
| | Forum: Third Party Coin Grading (TPG): PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, ETC. |
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| And Then There Was One: PCGS
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 06/01/2015 5:12 pm
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Among the many places I go to buy coins, I regularly buy coins from a handful of sellers on ebay. All of these sellers have virtual "storefronts" where you can see pretty easily everything they have for sale. A number of dealers have websites with similar search capabilities, such as Heritage and Pinnacle Rarities. Anybody who has been following sellers of U.S. Coins in these venues can easily see the effect I'm talking about. One of my most trusted dealers on ebay has been selling me coins for 10 years. A couple of years ago, his inventory was about half & half PCGS and NGC with a few ANACS and very occasionally, an ICG graded coin. Nowadays, his inventory is 90% PCGS graded coins. In a recent email, he confirmed that this is the trend he is seeing. It is no secret that TP grading can be arbitrary. One either accepts that or one does not. But I think it is empirically demonstrable that PCGS coins are easier to sell at higher prices than NGC coins are right now. It's not something I'm happy about, but neither am I going to take all my toys and quit.
Tryna: 2 points: You are correct that NGC has (or claims to have) graded more coins than PCGS, but the numbers aren't actually that far apart: NGC claims, on their website, to have graded "over 31 million". PCGS claims (as of this writing) that they have graded 30,559,523 coins. So while it is true that NGC has graded more coins, assuming their claim is accurate, the numbers are very close.
As to counterfeiting and what PCGS is doing about it, PCGS has just introduced a new holder which, they claim, is virtually impossible to counterfeit. I have watched the video on their website and was persuaded that they are probably right. The new holders, for example, have embedded holograms and the coin equivalent of DNA "chips" hidden in the holder.
Another statistic that PCGS publishes is the number of coins that were submitted for crossover and their success rate. As of this post, in the last 30 days, approximately 38% of crossover submissions succeeded (crossed at the same grade), and during the last 12 months, 48%. That's a pretty remarkable statistic. My own experience was a little over 50% on my last submission of 25 coins - 14 crossed, 11 did not. It is noteworthy that 3 of the coins that successfully crossed on this submission, had previously been rejected. There is a video on the PCGS website in which Don Willis is talking to an audience at a show, and in which he expresses real ambivalence about crossover submissions. He seems to be saying that PCGS, as a matter of company policy, would rather grade raw coins. There is no doubt in my mind that over a period of time, if one were to test it, many more coins would cross successfully if they were first cracked out of the unwanted holder. |
| | Forum: Third Party Coin Grading (TPG): PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, ETC. |
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| And Then There Was One: PCGS
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 05/30/2015 4:56 pm
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Hello,
I hope some of you will remember me. I have been away for a very long time because of all kinds of things in my life that would be TMI for me to share. But I do want to throw out some observations and thoughts, so I hope you'll be kind enough to indulge me and comment if you like.
I have been collecting furiously though, and have longed to have somewhere or someone to talk to about all kinds of issues that have come up. The big story now, it seems to me, though, is the ongoing demise of NGC. Even 5 or 6 years ago, coin prices were changing in PCGS's favor. Now, PCGS's domination has increased enormously. With the advent of their new holders, I think this trend will continue.
Personally, I have always brought everything I knew and learned to every coin purchase. "Buy the coin not the holder" was something I learned almost right away when I began collecting as an adult over 10 years ago. Third party grading, however, is a way of life, especially for someone like me who loves coins for their own sakes, but also wants to protect my investment, enhance it where possible, and generally make my coins as presentable as I can according to my own tastes and preferences.
For those and some perhaps less persuasive reasons (I like uniformity in presentation, for example), I am gradually moving my collection out of NGC holders. Alas. Recently, I took advantage of a promotion and submitted 25 coins in NGC holders to PCGS for crossover and got 14 of them crossed. Interestingly, some of the coins that crossed had been rejected in a prior such submission in 2014. I have decided, with 5 of the remaining coins to give them another go later on, and I have sold the other 6 in exchange for an AWESOME 1814 large cent in AU50.
That's all for now. Please be kind. |
| | Forum: Third Party Coin Grading (TPG): PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, ETC. |
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| Crack & Resubmit Either Of These Two?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 05/30/2015 4:37 pm
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Hello everyone,
Hello. I've been away on adventures for a few years and have not posted in these or any other forums for awhile, so I'm glad to see familiar faces. I have recently been giving a lot of thought trying to figure out what the best way to win when submitting coins for grading. Recently I had an experience I thought worth sharing, and it seems appropriate here. First of all, it seems pretty obvious to me that PCGS is on a mission to put NGC out of business, or at least relegate them to irrelevancy. I take this with a shrug of shoulders because I like PCGS better anyway. Nothing I can do about it anyway. So recently decided to divest myself of most of my NGC coins.. The process is arbitrary and here's anecdotal evidence: Last year I sent 12 coins to PCGS for crossover from NGC holders. Only 3 of them crossed. This Spring, PCGS offered a Crossover Promotion, where they would only charge $10 for coins that Did Not Cross. I took advantage and sent it 25 coins for crossover. Included in that batch were several coins that had failed to cross in the earlier submission. Three of the former DNC coins crossed this time. In total, 14 of 25 crossed successfully. One coin that I thought was a shoe-in came back DNC (It was an 1855 half-cent in an NGC MS65BN holder with a CAC sticker on it. Anyway, I decided to part with some of those coins, and, in light of my prior experience, may send some back in with "ANY" grade acceptable. This may seem like a lot of wasted money, but I would just like to point out that this is a hobby, after all, and I don't apologize for being fussy with my coins. |
| | Forum: Third Party Coin Grading (TPG): PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, ETC. |
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| Please Advise: Purchase Of 1941 Liberty Walking & 1929 Stand
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 03/19/2010 10:03 pm
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| Both coins are common examples and so I think $20 with shipping for the two, or $15 for the Walker. Strictly speaking (not counting pecuniary value), the Walker's a nice coin if it hasn't been dipped. EF45. Without the ding, and supposing it's problem free, it might be a 50. But that's w/o the ding. It was well struck. You can see that the hand used to be there, the features in the face and cap are sharp. The sun's rays are bold. There is the predictable line of wear on the eagle's left/right diagonal, but there is still lots of feather detail. I've seen coins graded far higher than that that had less feather detail on the leg. Except for one thing: the color looks a little weird. Maybe it's the photography, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody dipped in during the last 60-70 years. The quarter looks quite common and I wouldn't want it. I'd wait for a sharper example of that date. and a FAR sharper coin for a type set. |
| | Forum: US Classic and Colonial Coins |
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| CAC (Certified Acceptance Corporation)
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 03/19/2010 9:10 pm
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I have three coins with CAC stickers in my Type Set. They're all very appealing. Each of them does seem to have a special something - something you can point to and say "that's why it got the sticker." I had very little idea what, if anything, the sticker was supposed to imply. I just guessed a CAC sticker was kind of like an NGC star: It indicated especially striking eye appeal. But I went to their website today and their statements about what they do seem almost to emphasize that that is NOT what they are.
I'm obviously paraphrasing here and certainly may have misunderstood any or all of what I was reading, but anyway: They say they imagine an accurately graded coin in three levels 1. Spectacular for the grade. 2. A solid example of a coin in that grade (presumably with no distractions or reasons for doubt), and 3. A coin that may or may arguably deserve the grade assigned, they are ordinary in every way. They say that they will give coins of the first two descriptions the shiny green stickers, and return the others un-stickered. They also provide the number of coins they've examined and the number that got stickers. It looked to be roughly 2/3 got stickered.
I don't have the money to lavish on it at this time, but I have a lot of coins I think would get stickers. (Ideally that should be ALL my coins, but alas, sometimes I just made a dumb decision.) I'm tempted to try it, just to see how their judgement compares with mine. That's also, incidentally, the main reason I send a coin to be graded in the first place, on the occasions I've done that.
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| | Forum: Third Party Coin Grading (TPG): PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, ETC. |
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| Which To Join Dilemma
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 03/19/2010 8:41 pm
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Hello all,
Wow! It's been a long time. I hope everyone is living long and prospering! I've been collecting steadily, if slowly, lately. Just haven't had a chance to visit the Coin Community for a while. Anyway, it's good to be back.
My opinion on this topic: Tighten the belt and do both. But if you can only do 1, do the NGC one because they have the coolest holders, they're every bit as professional and capable as PCGS, they're prices on classic coins fluctuate, but unless you're buying your coins solely as an investment, the 2 companies are interchangeable.
On the other hand, the PCGS offer is tempting. It more than pays for itself, as does the NGC. My problem is, I don't usually buy raw coins, so I don't have that many to grade. I have a complete set of almost all raw Walkers, and eventually would like them graded, but I'm upgrading (at a snail's pace) the older coins, and in the meantime, that's where I get my raw coin fix, so I'm not sure I'd want to use my vouchers for those coins.
I know some people are convinced that PCGS is the blu ray of grading companies, but I like my NGC graded coins just as well.
See, the point is IT'S THE COIN that ultimately matters. NGC has graded some of the finest and most expensive coins known to exist, as has PCGS. They're interchangeable to me on classic coins. And if you're buying ultra rarities, they are absolutely interchangeable in the prices they realize.
LAST THING: If you're into modern coins, I don't follow the conventional wisdom that PCGS is stricter. First of all, neither company is as strict on most modern coins than they should be. Second, while it is true that PCGS gives way fewer 70s to modern coins, I don't think it's because they're strict. I think it's because they grade on a curve. PCGS is more reluctant than NGC to give out 70s because they want to limit the number of coins they give that grade to, so that even a really perfect coin may not get a 70 because they've filled their quota for 70s on that particular coin.
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| | Forum: Third Party Coin Grading (TPG): PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, ETC. |
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| Should I Sell?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/26/2009 12:28 am
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| Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. Ryan knows what he's getting into with this house, because he has been paying the mortgage since his ex-roommate, who has title, left. But not just that. I may not give him all of it if I sell. I'd likely buy a coin or two. Anyway, thanks again. I won't be raiding my IRA, though. Thanks especially for all your advise on that. |
| | Forum: Main Coin Forum |
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| US Type Set List
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/24/2009 10:29 pm
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Thanks for posting that list. The 7070 list is a good place to start, but it's hardly a complete U.S. Type set. I started with the 7070, but since I acquired my No Drapery Seated Liberty half dollar and my Liberty Cap cent, as well as a few other things not on the 7070 list, I have been using the list that the NCG and PCGS Registry lists as guides. They're mostly the same as your list, but there is one weird anomaly. In the Large Cents category of the NGC registry set, there is no distinction between the Matron head and the various "braided hair" types. I mean, to fill the slots, you have to get a 1792 "half-disme", three different Standing Liberty Quarters, three different silver 3-cent pieces, but you don't have to get a Matron head cent if you already have a braided cent? To me that just doesn't make cents (LOL). But a list is just a list. So my type set has both. Same with the contemporary cent, which, since 1982, has been made almost entirely of zinc. That would seem to stand as a type in my view, so even though the contemporary cent is just a shiny penny, I chose and (virtually) flawless red one for my set as an example of that "type."
The best guide for me has been the U.S. Type Set red book by Q. David Bowers. He manages to pack a lot of information about the types - what to look for, how common or uncommon they were/are and why, interesting connections between designs and history. All that has informed me when choosing examples. I'm not sure of the exact title, but I recommend that book whole heartedly for those interested in this way of collecting. |
| | Forum: Main Coin Forum |
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| Should I Sell?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/24/2009 9:46 pm
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To just carl: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. My son (Ryan) is single. Sort of. He has a live-in girlfriend that he has high hopes for, and if things progress as they seem to be doing, they'll probably get married. She is a PhD candidate at UT Austin, and will probably end up some kind of teacher. I don't know anything about her family. I just met her last Christmas. I like her very much and I am glad that she makes Ryan happy. Which, apparently, she does.
As his father, I could go on for days explaining why he is the light of my life, but more to the point, Ryan is a very responsible and disciplined person. If they were his coins, my guess is that he would keep them unless and until something came up. But I'd also guess that if he were in my shoes, he'd do the same for his son if he had one and if he could.
He has always shown a genuine interest in my coins, but has not been bitten by that bug. Yet.
And thanks to everyone for your opinions and advice. |
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| So The Economy Is Doing What To Coins?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/24/2009 9:18 pm
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I'm not a tax lawyer, but I am a lawyer and there are some relevant principles here. First - and this is written into the tax code - is that for the vast vast vast majority of people, on unreported income or loss, the honor system applies. Generally audits are conducted only when significant anomalies show up. Collectibles are hardly on the radar except for the most organized and incorporated dealers. Most collectors who sell or swap coins from time to time are not in this category.
Another important principle is that anyone accused of violating the law enjoys a number of constitutional protections that would be virtually impossible to satisfy if the IRS wanted to prosecute average collectors for allegedly violating the capital gains tax laws. Such as the burden of proof: In criminal prosecutions - which virtually all such actions are - the burden (as most people know) is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The rules and standards of evidence would also apply to such prosecutions as well. Hence the need for that infamous "paper trail" that rarely exists in the collectibles markets.
The plain fact is, the IRS hasn't the resources to monitor sales of collectibles. The vast majority of coin "dealers" are just collectors who are selling stuff they bought a while back. No one keeps receipts, if indeed they even got one. And I don't know anyone who has received a 1099 form for selling his or her coins. I know that some of my coins have appreciated, while others I paid too much for. Some were "swapped", something that is way beyond the competence of the federal government to evaluate.
Thus, if I were to be charged with a crime, even a tax crime, the burden would be on the government to prove the alleged capital gains beyond a reasonable doubt. To do this, an extensive audit would have to be conducted that would necessarily involve an investigative process to determine who sold what to whom at what price. Although coin dealers are required to report income from sales, this is largely so that the states can collect sales tax. Casual sellers who come in and sell their late grandfather's Morgans are not coin dealers. Real dealers have to pay (and therefore charge) sales tax as with any business. But if Jane Collector walks into Stack's and sells her proof sets, or whatever, she is not required to charge sales tax. Also, please notice that with even the biggest dealers, cash transactions are generally preferred. The aforementioned establishment still doesn't take credit cards. (*Since Stack's has merged with ANR, you can buy coins from them online or through the New Hampshire offices with credit cards, but not at the actual store on 57th St in New York.
Because such audits are virtually impossible to conduct in any meaningful way, and would ultimately be unprofitable to the government for all but the very highest rollers, the cost of auditing would far exceed the benefit of collecting the back taxes and penalties, or the even more dubious benefit of commencing lawsuits and criminal prosecutions.
Finally, collectibles are, almost by definition, subjective in value. If you doubt that, compare CoinValues's online price guide to PCGS's. A coin is worth what a collector will pay for it, and that decision may be based on any number of factors totally unrelated to such mundane notions as what a particular coin is "worth". I've certainly paid more for coins of exceptional appeal than what was listed on the price guides at the time. With no regrets. Usually.
So, I would UNOFFICIALLY opine that, unless you're buying and selling at a high professional rate, you don't have to worry about whether your coins have generated any capital gains that you might have to pay taxes on if you sell them. (Note: I'm talking about the living. if you die and the collectibles are part of your estate, other laws and priniciples may apply.) |
| | Forum: Main Coin Forum |
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| Should I Sell?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/24/2009 7:37 pm
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I would really love to hear what people think and advise about the following:
I am seriously considering selling my Peace Dollars. I have a fine set that's all mint state. I have been told by a numismatist at Heritage that if I consigned them, I could expect to realize in the ball park of $12,000. I haven't stopped collecting. I'm about 50% away from completing a U.S. Type set, and I completed the silver dollars a couple of years ago, so I haven't been paying much attention to them.
Now as it happens, I have a son is who is trying to buy a house. He is working 3 jobs to keep the lease current and save for a down-payment that he estimates will be about $10,000. Next August, he will celebrate his 30th birthday, and I thought it would be so cool to surprise him with a hefty check. This is something I could only do if I did one of two things: 1- borrow it against my retirement account (i.e., borrowing it from myself), or 2- sell the Peace dollars (which, incidentally, I have for a long time considered to be an asset for a rainy day. Or year. Or decade.)
I love those coins and I am fairly confident that they will at least modestly increase in value over coming years. But I love my son more, and he has increased in value every second since the moment he was born, and I would really like to do something special for him, such as provide the aforementioned down-payment. In these troubled times, I hesitate to borrow from my retirement. So, I'm leaning strongly toward path number 2.
If you have an opinion or advice, I'd love to know it. Thanks!
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| Slabbed Coins <(:^:)> Raw Coins?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/24/2009 7:20 pm
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People collect coins for many reasons. I buy mostly slabbed coins, but I treasure my complete circulated Walker set that are all raw, and I designed a special display to keep them relatively safe. This set started when I was 10 or so. It was interrupted briefly by adolescence and young adulthood, but is now finished. I upgrade the coins from time to time, and when I do, the coins are always raw.
The thing that I think it's important to emphasize is that it doesn't have to be one or the other. People who are able to buy expensive coins are capable of caring about their quality and beauty as well as their ability to retain value . Of course, there are the people who think that they are the only TRUE collectors, and don't mind bragging about that in every post. Frankly, if I was collecting pennies from change, I wouldn't have them slabbed. But I've been there and done that. And if I ever get the opportunity to buy a Chain Cent, it will almost certainly be in a slab. And I will never again put a coin in a Dansco album for reasons described below.
Since I started expanding the perimeters of my type set beyond the Canon of the Dansco 7070, many of the coins I have acquired in the last couple of years are too expensive to be unsure of what the market will bear should I decide to sell them - to upgrade for example, or to avert catastrophe, or even to buy my son a new car on his 30th birthday.
I started my typeset raw in a Dansco 7070 album. First of all, the many of the coins toned from being in the album. One Jeff acquired an attractive toning, but a Red Gem cent that I had turned into a RB cent during its time in that album, and a bright white silver quarter has become grey and unattractively toned. This happened in my statehood quarter collection too.
Second, when you start acquiring things like 1837 No Stars half-dimes, or 1794 Liberty cap cents, the grading is subtler, and quite frankly, if I have to shell out $1,000 or more to get a pretty coin, I want some guarantee that I didn't throw my money at a 15 that turned out to be a 6, or worse a fake or doctored coin. I am beginning to know a lot about these coins, but there are subtleties on some that I don't know to look for. I got a coin a couple of years ago raw that was just gorgeous. My local coin dealer - Stack's - thought so too. Too gorgeous as it turned out - it was ultimately discovered to be whizzed. This became apparent after its tone had changed considerably from its tenure in a Dansco album. Very skillfully whizzed, but whizzed nonetheless.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the appeal of raw coins and the drawbacks of slabbed coins. I'd much rather look at my Sheldon 31 (Breen 13) without the plastic. But if it had not been in the plastic, I probably wouldn't have bought it unless it had been from an extremely trusted source (not Stack's) and I certainly wouldn't have payed what I payed for it.
Then of course there's the issue of safety. If you have nice collector coins, you don't really own them so much as act as their caretakers while they are in your hands. Some of these coins might be important historically as artifacts. I don't want to take the chance of dropping it on the floor and rolling over it with my desk chair. I'm a very careful person, but in the words of an unlamented former secretary of defense, "stuff happens." |
| | Forum: Main Coin Forum |
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| Airtite Holders, 2x2 Flips Or Coin Albums? And Why?
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 06/06/2008 08:28 am
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I have to say, I do not understand the appeal of Dansco albums. I have never had one where the coins didn't tone in those slots, and while some of them turned out to look pretty cool (a 1967 Jeff 5C that was part of a mint set I paid $10 for, developed a wine colored tone around the rims, and I sent it in to NGC and got a MS68*), most just got dark (a 1909 VDB Cent went from RD to RB. That's a significant change.
Instead, although they're kind of awkwardly packaged, I really like the "coin edge" holders I got from Amos Advantage. They are designed to hold the coin in such a way as the edge is completely visible and easy to examine. The only way to organize them is to get the accessory sheets, each of which holds 9 coins or mabye 12. The sheets then go in loose leaf notebooks. The sheets are made of fake velvet so it looks really nice in the note book and the coins is completely suspended and protected by the holder.
I have almost my whole Walker set in a custom album like that. They're also easy to handle and provide absolutely air tight protection. The best part is you can see the whole coin because it's raised from it's matrix and sort of floats in the holder.
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| Xcheck Out My New Penny!
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/28/2008 6:50 pm
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| Update: After consulting with my local coin dealer, and his copy of Breen's LC encyclopedia, I have determined that the variety attribution for this coin is: Breen 13, Sheldon 31. |
| | Forum: US Classic and Colonial Coins |
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| 1926 Peace Dollar For Grading
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/28/2008 6:47 pm
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MS64
These coins are allowed more bag marks than other coins. I have several 65's that have bag marks in the fields. This one has a strong strike, with at least one reed mark in the obverse field and what looks like some abrasion on the cheek. The difference between a 64 and 65 on a coin like this is the quality of the luster, which it's hard to see on the photo. If it's really flashy, it might be a 65. |
| | Forum: US Classic and Colonial Coin Grading |
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| 1833 Half Cent
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/28/2008 5:15 pm
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| I'm going to guess MS63. The mark on the cheek keeps it from a 64 I think. The color and luster look wonderful, as do the near perfect stars and hair detail. Anyway, like I said, it's just a guess. |
| | Forum: US Classic and Colonial Coin Grading |
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| 1794 Head Of 1794 1c
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Stephen420
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Posted 04/28/2008 5:11 pm
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| Jaobler: Thanks for the info. I sent you an email. I went to my coin dealer today and we researched the variety using Breen's LC Encyclopedia and Noyes (both of which are out of print). It turns out that this coin is an example of Breen 13, Sheldon 31. Your diagnostics were spot on, but there is one other die feature which appears to be a bit of leaf that was incompletely formed on the reverse die that identifies it. That can be seen in the photo directly next to the tip of the long leaf that points directly to, and almost touches the "T" in "CENT". |
| | Forum: US Classic and Colonial Coin Grading |
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